1 00:00:13,120 --> 00:00:31,490 [Music] 2 00:00:35,900 --> 00:00:33,830 this episode of the podcast is brought 3 00:00:38,450 --> 00:00:35,910 to you by audible.com the internet's 4 00:00:41,210 --> 00:00:38,460 leading provider of audiobooks with more 5 00:00:43,250 --> 00:00:41,220 than 60,000 downloadable titles across 6 00:00:46,100 --> 00:00:43,260 all types of literature including 7 00:00:48,170 --> 00:00:46,110 fiction nonfiction and periodicals for 8 00:00:52,220 --> 00:00:48,180 free audio book of your choice go to 9 00:00:55,670 --> 00:00:52,230 audible podcast.com slash para Cass 10 00:00:58,520 --> 00:00:55,680 that's audible podcast.com slash power 11 00:01:01,400 --> 00:00:58,530 cast and now on with the show let's go 12 00:01:04,010 --> 00:01:01,410 back in time back to the 1960s which is 13 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:04,020 probably before most of my guests today 14 00:01:08,810 --> 00:01:07,290 were born I think or maybe they were 15 00:01:10,870 --> 00:01:08,820 here and they didn't tell us they were 16 00:01:14,180 --> 00:01:10,880 located and this was an all-night 17 00:01:15,830 --> 00:01:14,190 talketh on now teenagers in those days 18 00:01:16,880 --> 00:01:15,840 would do what teenagers do today you 19 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:16,890 know they get blasted 20 00:01:22,340 --> 00:01:19,770 except Alan greenfield and I talked 21 00:01:24,859 --> 00:01:22,350 about flying saucers and we decided 22 00:01:26,389 --> 00:01:24,869 maybe you can do anything or believe 23 00:01:27,859 --> 00:01:26,399 anything at 3 or 4 o'clock in the 24 00:01:30,260 --> 00:01:27,869 morning after you've been talking for 25 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:30,270 about 16 hours straight and we decided 26 00:01:35,420 --> 00:01:33,090 that we believed that UFOs couldn't 27 00:01:37,789 --> 00:01:35,430 possibly come from outer space why 28 00:01:39,320 --> 00:01:37,799 because they're never seen so much in 29 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:39,330 space and I'm the earth they're seeing 30 00:01:44,719 --> 00:01:41,490 the sky they land they're seen over 31 00:01:47,749 --> 00:01:44,729 oceans so Greenfield had this book in 32 00:01:49,429 --> 00:01:47,759 hand the incomplete and Chandra and this 33 00:01:51,830 --> 00:01:49,439 was a book by L Sprague de Kamp and 34 00:01:54,770 --> 00:01:51,840 Fletcher Pratt a fantasy book where 35 00:01:57,200 --> 00:01:54,780 somebody goes into an alternate universe 36 00:01:59,690 --> 00:01:57,210 where different laws of physics apply I 37 00:02:01,429 --> 00:01:59,700 would say well a few FOS we're from an 38 00:02:03,219 --> 00:02:01,439 alternate universe but they actually 39 00:02:06,350 --> 00:02:03,229 going to look at that as a possibility 40 00:02:08,780 --> 00:02:06,360 what if they were from the earth right 41 00:02:10,639 --> 00:02:08,790 here mother earth they weren't from 42 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:10,649 outer space then you think about people 43 00:02:16,250 --> 00:02:13,530 like Richard shaver who said that the 44 00:02:19,190 --> 00:02:16,260 DeRose at eros creatures living below 45 00:02:23,120 --> 00:02:19,200 the surface of the earth in caverns were 46 00:02:26,509 --> 00:02:23,130 responsible for UFOs and they use tell 47 00:02:28,130 --> 00:02:26,519 Ras to generate hallucinations to give 48 00:02:29,750 --> 00:02:28,140 us false images of what's going on you 49 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:29,760 think what time for loosen agents can 50 00:02:34,310 --> 00:02:31,530 they do well if you go to Star Trek and 51 00:02:36,890 --> 00:02:34,320 you watch Star Trek generations and next 52 00:02:38,750 --> 00:02:36,900 generation all the series after the 53 00:02:40,940 --> 00:02:38,760 original they had a holodeck where you 54 00:02:43,860 --> 00:02:40,950 go in there it's a virtual reality world 55 00:02:45,479 --> 00:02:43,870 you can see you can touch you can feel 56 00:02:47,220 --> 00:02:45,489 and the other thing is the things you 57 00:02:48,539 --> 00:02:47,230 see would be perfectly real they click 58 00:02:50,339 --> 00:02:48,549 and kill you because there was a 59 00:02:52,500 --> 00:02:50,349 built-in block in the computer but then 60 00:02:55,289 --> 00:02:52,510 sometimes in some episodes that built-in 61 00:02:56,640 --> 00:02:55,299 block was gone and that takes us to the 62 00:02:58,920 --> 00:02:56,650 book that's going to be the discussion 63 00:03:01,470 --> 00:02:58,930 point here today it's called the crypto 64 00:03:03,210 --> 00:03:01,480 terrestrials by Mac til knees and for 65 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:03,220 those of you who don't remember max 66 00:03:08,970 --> 00:03:06,970 appearances on the para cast and the 67 00:03:12,539 --> 00:03:08,980 celebration of his life because he died 68 00:03:14,729 --> 00:03:12,549 at the tender age of 34 last year I 69 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:14,739 think we should have Paul tell us more 70 00:03:21,300 --> 00:03:18,010 about who Mac Tonys was and how he 71 00:03:23,699 --> 00:03:21,310 became interested in what he called the 72 00:03:26,970 --> 00:03:23,709 crypto to rescue us Paul well Mac was a 73 00:03:30,390 --> 00:03:26,980 writer and thinker frankly from Kansas 74 00:03:32,520 --> 00:03:30,400 City Missouri and he had written on a 75 00:03:35,190 --> 00:03:32,530 number of subjects paranormal and 76 00:03:36,839 --> 00:03:35,200 science fiction fiction subjects for for 77 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:36,849 a number of years 78 00:03:41,699 --> 00:03:39,730 UFOs being one of them certainly he was 79 00:03:44,940 --> 00:03:41,709 had a long-standing interest in the UFO 80 00:03:47,819 --> 00:03:44,950 phenomenon and as he read a lot about 81 00:03:49,979 --> 00:03:47,829 UFOs as he immersed himself in the UFO 82 00:03:52,319 --> 00:03:49,989 subculture and the sort of evidence the 83 00:03:54,210 --> 00:03:52,329 studies the writings he became more and 84 00:03:57,150 --> 00:03:54,220 more disenchanted with the 85 00:03:59,129 --> 00:03:57,160 extra-terrestrial hypothesis not that he 86 00:04:01,470 --> 00:03:59,139 ruled it out and we can talk about that 87 00:04:03,360 --> 00:04:01,480 within the crypto terrestrials he makes 88 00:04:05,610 --> 00:04:03,370 it very clear that he still thinks it's 89 00:04:07,319 --> 00:04:05,620 a perfectly valid hypothesis but he 90 00:04:09,930 --> 00:04:07,329 started looking around and saying look 91 00:04:11,819 --> 00:04:09,940 are there other possibilities as to what 92 00:04:14,339 --> 00:04:11,829 the UFO phenomenon and assuming a 93 00:04:18,750 --> 00:04:14,349 nonhuman explanation what it might 94 00:04:21,060 --> 00:04:18,760 represent and he sort of hit upon this 95 00:04:24,510 --> 00:04:21,070 idea the crypto treasures back in about 96 00:04:26,430 --> 00:04:24,520 2006 combination I think the first post 97 00:04:28,740 --> 00:04:26,440 on his blog posts human blues that he 98 00:04:31,350 --> 00:04:28,750 ever made about that used the term 99 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:31,360 crypto terrestrials was was in April of 100 00:04:36,990 --> 00:04:34,570 2006 which was just a month before he 101 00:04:40,140 --> 00:04:37,000 and I traveled out to I first met him in 102 00:04:41,700 --> 00:04:40,150 person interviewed him in Kansas City 103 00:04:43,500 --> 00:04:41,710 and he and I traveled out to Los Angeles 104 00:04:45,750 --> 00:04:43,510 we were doing some filming for best 105 00:04:47,730 --> 00:04:45,760 evidence the film I did on UFOs we 106 00:04:49,350 --> 00:04:47,740 actually stayed with Greg Bishop we did 107 00:04:52,610 --> 00:04:49,360 an episode of Greg's show radio 108 00:04:54,530 --> 00:04:52,620 mysterioso a legendary episode I think 109 00:04:56,930 --> 00:04:54,540 that 12th people listen to but many more 110 00:04:58,700 --> 00:04:56,940 have downloaded since in the the actual 111 00:05:00,439 --> 00:04:58,710 recording studio or the radio station 112 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:00,449 rather where Greg does a show in LA and 113 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:02,130 that was sort of the first time I think 114 00:05:05,990 --> 00:05:03,810 that Matt could ever publicly talked 115 00:05:08,510 --> 00:05:06,000 about the crypto terrestrial hypothesis 116 00:05:09,830 --> 00:05:08,520 that he was working on and he had 117 00:05:11,420 --> 00:05:09,840 written about it for maybe a month 118 00:05:12,740 --> 00:05:11,430 beforehand but it didn't it had been 119 00:05:16,610 --> 00:05:12,750 something that had been brewing in his 120 00:05:18,439 --> 00:05:16,620 mind trying to combine John keels ultra 121 00:05:21,170 --> 00:05:18,449 terrestrials with some of valets 122 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:21,180 thinking with frankly you know some of 123 00:05:25,189 --> 00:05:22,770 some of the stuff you were talking about 124 00:05:26,990 --> 00:05:25,199 shavers won't call it Hollow Earth but 125 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:27,000 you know themes sort of the idea that 126 00:05:30,560 --> 00:05:29,130 there was an indigenous humanoid if he 127 00:05:33,140 --> 00:05:30,570 will living amongst us that might be 128 00:05:35,240 --> 00:05:33,150 responsible for this and so that's kind 129 00:05:37,820 --> 00:05:35,250 of he started off originally with crypto 130 00:05:39,560 --> 00:05:37,830 hominid which was the term that he first 131 00:05:41,689 --> 00:05:39,570 came up with and then he decided that 132 00:05:44,510 --> 00:05:41,699 sounded a bit too much like Bigfoot so 133 00:05:47,689 --> 00:05:44,520 he went for crypto he went for crypto 134 00:05:49,640 --> 00:05:47,699 crypto terrestrial any rights I'm 135 00:05:51,170 --> 00:05:49,650 actually looking at this blog now the 136 00:05:55,010 --> 00:05:51,180 post day you can look at it folks 137 00:05:57,500 --> 00:05:55,020 posthuman blues blog spot.com and if you 138 00:05:59,690 --> 00:05:57,510 go to April 16th you'll see that he 139 00:06:01,730 --> 00:05:59,700 writes I've been using the term ultra 140 00:06:04,370 --> 00:06:01,740 terrestrial to denote secretive 141 00:06:07,100 --> 00:06:04,380 humanoids living in our midst he notes 142 00:06:08,719 --> 00:06:07,110 that it's a term that qu'il coined and 143 00:06:11,420 --> 00:06:08,729 he says while I'm intrigued by the 144 00:06:12,980 --> 00:06:11,430 implications of parallel worlds where 145 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:12,990 the Keele super spectrum was something 146 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:14,330 more in keeping with contemporary 147 00:06:19,490 --> 00:06:17,250 cosmological thought my meaning maddox 148 00:06:21,260 --> 00:06:19,500 ultra terrestrials for local while they 149 00:06:24,230 --> 00:06:21,270 might possess paranormal abilities they 150 00:06:26,330 --> 00:06:24,240 live right here on our earth so as he 151 00:06:28,159 --> 00:06:26,340 writes so I'm respectfully disposing of 152 00:06:30,290 --> 00:06:28,169 the ultra label and replacing it with 153 00:06:32,240 --> 00:06:30,300 crypto terrestrial which carries less 154 00:06:33,950 --> 00:06:32,250 Cillian baggage and that's pretty much 155 00:06:36,950 --> 00:06:33,960 where he started and over the last four 156 00:06:38,659 --> 00:06:36,960 years he's been trying to he was before 157 00:06:41,300 --> 00:06:38,669 his death really tried to finish this 158 00:06:42,620 --> 00:06:41,310 book and and now it's out I don't know 159 00:06:44,779 --> 00:06:42,630 is that the is that a good explanation 160 00:06:45,950 --> 00:06:44,789 that's basically that's it well I'll 161 00:06:48,050 --> 00:06:45,960 tell you what we have two other guests 162 00:06:50,540 --> 00:06:48,060 who can maybe amplifier we have Greg 163 00:06:52,969 --> 00:06:50,550 Bishop the Nicholas Redfern Greg it's up 164 00:06:56,210 --> 00:06:52,979 to you where he came up with this I 165 00:06:58,580 --> 00:06:56,220 first heard about it obviously when he 166 00:06:59,610 --> 00:06:58,590 and Paul were out here doing the show 167 00:07:01,320 --> 00:06:59,620 which 168 00:07:02,879 --> 00:07:01,330 yeah and Paul's right it's been 169 00:07:05,100 --> 00:07:02,889 downloaded quite a few times and I think 170 00:07:05,969 --> 00:07:05,110 when the books out now more people will 171 00:07:08,580 --> 00:07:05,979 search it out 172 00:07:11,999 --> 00:07:08,590 and find it to find out what he was 173 00:07:14,010 --> 00:07:12,009 thinking about where his process had 174 00:07:15,809 --> 00:07:14,020 evolved from that point up to when he 175 00:07:19,679 --> 00:07:15,819 finished or virtually finished the book 176 00:07:21,719 --> 00:07:19,689 in October of last year he and I talked 177 00:07:25,589 --> 00:07:21,729 about it I'm sure you know Nick and Paul 178 00:07:27,420 --> 00:07:25,599 too a lot of people that knew him talked 179 00:07:29,909 --> 00:07:27,430 about these long phone conversations 180 00:07:31,290 --> 00:07:29,919 that they had with him and he and I did 181 00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:31,300 the same thing you know we talked for 182 00:07:35,610 --> 00:07:34,240 two or three or four hours and you know 183 00:07:37,559 --> 00:07:35,620 administer talking about a whole bunch 184 00:07:39,329 --> 00:07:37,569 of other things we did talk about some 185 00:07:41,879 --> 00:07:39,339 of the stuff he was putting in the book 186 00:07:44,159 --> 00:07:41,889 and those ideas and mold them over and 187 00:07:45,659 --> 00:07:44,169 we both got each other thinking about 188 00:07:47,309 --> 00:07:45,669 different things and you know all of a 189 00:07:49,709 --> 00:07:47,319 sudden after I talked to might see a 190 00:07:50,790 --> 00:07:49,719 post them on post him and blues about 191 00:07:54,540 --> 00:07:50,800 what we talked about the night before 192 00:07:56,369 --> 00:07:54,550 and a lot of those elements I saw ended 193 00:07:58,379 --> 00:07:56,379 up in the book because it was stuff that 194 00:08:00,689 --> 00:07:58,389 was rolling around in his mind anyway 195 00:08:02,279 --> 00:08:00,699 and I think in the process of talking to 196 00:08:02,730 --> 00:08:02,289 people who know what you're talking 197 00:08:04,740 --> 00:08:02,740 about 198 00:08:08,249 --> 00:08:04,750 a lot of these ideas can crystallize and 199 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:08,259 become more amenable to something you 200 00:08:11,850 --> 00:08:09,610 want to put in a book and present to the 201 00:08:14,579 --> 00:08:11,860 public which is what he did how about 202 00:08:16,290 --> 00:08:14,589 Nick Redfern for more well yeah my 203 00:08:18,659 --> 00:08:16,300 approach that kind of pretty much 204 00:08:20,909 --> 00:08:18,669 identical to to Paul and Greg's I mean I 205 00:08:23,610 --> 00:08:20,919 do have a few you know interesting 206 00:08:26,760 --> 00:08:23,620 recollections and when max first told me 207 00:08:29,550 --> 00:08:26,770 about his hypothesis you know the idea 208 00:08:31,350 --> 00:08:29,560 of the crypto terrestrials and one of 209 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:31,360 the things that kind of struck me when 210 00:08:36,569 --> 00:08:33,610 he told me was that he was fascinated by 211 00:08:39,719 --> 00:08:36,579 the idea that Roswell could be explained 212 00:08:41,699 --> 00:08:39,729 in a crypto terrestrial context and I 213 00:08:43,350 --> 00:08:41,709 remember one of my greg said about 214 00:08:45,269 --> 00:08:43,360 having these late-night conversations I 215 00:08:47,550 --> 00:08:45,279 distinctly remember one of the things 216 00:08:50,130 --> 00:08:47,560 Mac told me this probably would have 217 00:08:51,420 --> 00:08:50,140 been probably 2008 something like that 218 00:08:53,790 --> 00:08:51,430 I've truthfully forgetting there was 219 00:08:56,009 --> 00:08:53,800 thrown away at that time where he felt 220 00:08:58,139 --> 00:08:56,019 that you know if you regardless what you 221 00:09:00,780 --> 00:08:58,149 think happened at Roswell or Giddens Mac 222 00:09:04,110 --> 00:09:00,790 kind of view the recovery of this weird 223 00:09:06,350 --> 00:09:04,120 memory metal but in the same context the 224 00:09:08,610 --> 00:09:06,360 craft or object didn't seem that 225 00:09:09,700 --> 00:09:08,620 detailed if you like you know just a 226 00:09:11,980 --> 00:09:09,710 large 227 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:11,990 of weird materials that according to 228 00:09:16,270 --> 00:09:13,490 some witnesses exhibited extraordinary 229 00:09:18,490 --> 00:09:16,280 properties but there was no power plants 230 00:09:21,550 --> 00:09:18,500 you know there was no siege chairs 231 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:21,560 engine etc etc and I remember speaking 232 00:09:25,150 --> 00:09:22,730 with Mack and he said well you know 233 00:09:26,740 --> 00:09:25,160 maybe this could have been really a 234 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:26,750 secret spy balloon like the Air Force 235 00:09:31,780 --> 00:09:29,330 claimed but not one of ours and he kind 236 00:09:33,520 --> 00:09:31,790 of hypothesized that you know what if it 237 00:09:35,440 --> 00:09:33,530 really was a balloon but a truly 238 00:09:37,510 --> 00:09:35,450 advanced one but built by someone else 239 00:09:39,010 --> 00:09:37,520 and the Air Force ironically may have 240 00:09:40,720 --> 00:09:39,020 thought it was one of theirs until they 241 00:09:43,300 --> 00:09:40,730 stumbled across you know the crew 242 00:09:45,580 --> 00:09:43,310 members I guess and when Mack told me 243 00:09:47,710 --> 00:09:45,590 that I explained to him that well a 244 00:09:49,660 --> 00:09:47,720 couple years earlier late magazine had 245 00:09:52,570 --> 00:09:49,670 actually published an article written by 246 00:09:54,820 --> 00:09:52,580 Walter Bosley under the pseudonym of a a 247 00:09:56,770 --> 00:09:54,830 guest which actually talked about how 248 00:10:00,310 --> 00:09:56,780 Bosley who was in Air Force intelligence 249 00:10:02,530 --> 00:10:00,320 and the FBI his dad had told him that he 250 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:02,540 would be briefed on Roswell until had 251 00:10:06,550 --> 00:10:04,010 been told it was some sort of 252 00:10:09,340 --> 00:10:06,560 terrestrial craft but not our 253 00:10:11,380 --> 00:10:09,350 terrestrial craft if you like so here we 254 00:10:12,820 --> 00:10:11,390 had a lot of these conversations and was 255 00:10:14,920 --> 00:10:12,830 actually talk to somebody about this the 256 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:14,930 other day I do wonder if Mack had lived 257 00:10:19,420 --> 00:10:17,810 if his book may have been more extensive 258 00:10:21,520 --> 00:10:19,430 because actually sent him a copy of 259 00:10:23,260 --> 00:10:21,530 Walter's article which was very 260 00:10:25,210 --> 00:10:23,270 interesting and I do sometimes wonder if 261 00:10:26,830 --> 00:10:25,220 he might have failed the book out with 262 00:10:29,050 --> 00:10:26,840 some of them to some of the supportive 263 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:29,060 testimony not just his own hypothesis 264 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:30,290 well that's one thing too we should 265 00:10:35,290 --> 00:10:32,450 mention the book is something like 120 266 00:10:37,510 --> 00:10:35,300 pages plus an about message at the end 267 00:10:39,010 --> 00:10:37,520 about the author so I kind of feel in 268 00:10:41,710 --> 00:10:39,020 reading it that this is the summary 269 00:10:43,630 --> 00:10:41,720 where he summarizes all the evidence but 270 00:10:46,450 --> 00:10:43,640 maybe and he'd been around he would have 271 00:10:48,730 --> 00:10:46,460 gone back and actually fleshed out more 272 00:10:51,970 --> 00:10:48,740 case histories and more supporting data 273 00:10:54,130 --> 00:10:51,980 well the editor wanted him to do that 274 00:10:56,290 --> 00:10:54,140 Patrick is told me that he said I wish 275 00:10:59,380 --> 00:10:56,300 he'd been around because I when I got it 276 00:11:00,760 --> 00:10:59,390 I was surprised how short it was and I 277 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:00,770 wanted him to flush out some of these 278 00:11:04,690 --> 00:11:02,810 things but unfortunately he couldn't do 279 00:11:06,460 --> 00:11:04,700 that Patrick actually took I think two 280 00:11:09,190 --> 00:11:06,470 or three months getting into a format 281 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:09,200 that was that he thought was presentable 282 00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:11,810 so this was you know he had pretty much 283 00:11:15,759 --> 00:11:14,090 finished writing it but it hadn't hadn't 284 00:11:17,829 --> 00:11:15,769 gone through the you know back and forth 285 00:11:20,139 --> 00:11:17,839 the editor process yeah part of the 286 00:11:23,829 --> 00:11:20,149 problem with Mac is a very bright 287 00:11:25,720 --> 00:11:23,839 thinker and a very smart guy and it's 288 00:11:27,549 --> 00:11:25,730 not that he was lazy he wasn't lazy at 289 00:11:29,710 --> 00:11:27,559 all his problem was focus 290 00:11:32,379 --> 00:11:29,720 he had trouble sort of I remember when 291 00:11:34,090 --> 00:11:32,389 he sort of first got the deal and was 292 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:34,100 talking to his agent we were out in LA 293 00:11:40,269 --> 00:11:37,970 it was 2006 and so four years in to 294 00:11:42,030 --> 00:11:40,279 finish a book that was only finished 295 00:11:44,619 --> 00:11:42,040 because he passed away unfortunately 296 00:11:47,429 --> 00:11:44,629 that's really his contribution to that 297 00:11:49,809 --> 00:11:47,439 book is only 100 pages Nick and Greg 298 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:49,819 they're forward and afterwards sort of 299 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:52,850 fill out the other 20 pages and so he 300 00:11:57,309 --> 00:11:55,730 had trouble sort of focusing in and he 301 00:11:59,289 --> 00:11:57,319 was an ideas guy and they were all 302 00:12:00,939 --> 00:11:59,299 running around his head and I guess the 303 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:00,949 best way to explain the crypto 304 00:12:06,269 --> 00:12:03,410 terrestrial hypothesis is as a thought 305 00:12:09,759 --> 00:12:06,279 experiment that morphed its way into a 306 00:12:12,009 --> 00:12:09,769 hypothesis or a book but I think there's 307 00:12:13,629 --> 00:12:12,019 no question that if he had if he was 308 00:12:15,669 --> 00:12:13,639 still alive today two things would have 309 00:12:17,470 --> 00:12:15,679 happened one he'd still be writing the 310 00:12:19,539 --> 00:12:17,480 book and he probably would for another 311 00:12:22,119 --> 00:12:19,549 year or two or three and two yes he 312 00:12:24,850 --> 00:12:22,129 would have moved on and discussed more 313 00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:24,860 cases and when I was in Kansas City in 314 00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,920 2006 I was talking to him about UFOs in 315 00:12:31,210 --> 00:12:29,839 particular for the film but I took the 316 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:31,220 opportunity to just ask him a few 317 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:33,170 questions about did he think that 318 00:12:37,869 --> 00:12:35,569 certain specific UFO cases might have a 319 00:12:40,030 --> 00:12:37,879 crypto terrestrial bent and one of them 320 00:12:42,609 --> 00:12:40,040 was Rendlesham and there's a video up on 321 00:12:45,220 --> 00:12:42,619 Google video if you go to the para cast 322 00:12:46,749 --> 00:12:45,230 forms I think it's there I put these up 323 00:12:48,309 --> 00:12:46,759 in my review that I did this book in my 324 00:12:50,819 --> 00:12:48,319 own blog and I'm pretty sure they're at 325 00:12:53,919 --> 00:12:50,829 the para cast forums - and he describes 326 00:12:57,100 --> 00:12:53,929 briefly how he thinks that a case like 327 00:12:59,259 --> 00:12:57,110 Rendlesham is a perfect example of sort 328 00:13:03,280 --> 00:12:59,269 of the crypto arrest reel hypothesis at 329 00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:03,290 work where an indigenous species that 330 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:05,600 shares the planet like us and he would 331 00:13:10,090 --> 00:13:07,610 often point to nuclear bases in cases 332 00:13:11,470 --> 00:13:10,100 around nuclear bases so he would look at 333 00:13:13,659 --> 00:13:11,480 the Rendlesham case in all of these 334 00:13:15,309 --> 00:13:13,669 nuclear cases and he would say does it 335 00:13:17,409 --> 00:13:15,319 make any sense that aliens from another 336 00:13:19,059 --> 00:13:17,419 planet far far away light-years away 337 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:19,069 would be terribly concerned about 338 00:13:23,739 --> 00:13:21,290 whether or not we want you know blew our 339 00:13:25,449 --> 00:13:23,749 planet up frankly and unless you believe 340 00:13:27,309 --> 00:13:25,459 some of the more out there theories that 341 00:13:28,990 --> 00:13:27,319 somehow the earth is the the central 342 00:13:30,850 --> 00:13:29,000 crux of the galactic 343 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:30,860 based on continuum and if we blow up 344 00:13:35,650 --> 00:13:34,010 Tokyo it's going to destroy the universe 345 00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:35,660 unless you believe that there's there's 346 00:13:39,430 --> 00:13:37,490 really no reason why aliens would be 347 00:13:41,170 --> 00:13:39,440 terribly concerned I think about nuclear 348 00:13:43,450 --> 00:13:41,180 bases and that's one of the things that 349 00:13:45,550 --> 00:13:43,460 he found troubling I think the nuclear 350 00:13:47,920 --> 00:13:45,560 thing is one of the things that really 351 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:47,930 sort of got him thinking well does the 352 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:50,330 extra-terrestrial hypothesis make sense 353 00:13:54,850 --> 00:13:52,730 and he had he makes it clear in his book 354 00:13:56,440 --> 00:13:54,860 he had originally been if I remember 355 00:13:58,240 --> 00:13:56,450 from when I first met him the idea of 356 00:14:00,160 --> 00:13:58,250 artificial intelligence that we were 357 00:14:03,370 --> 00:14:00,170 dealing with aliens from another world 358 00:14:04,690 --> 00:14:03,380 but they were cybernetic AI and he said 359 00:14:06,670 --> 00:14:04,700 that doesn't even make sense 360 00:14:09,460 --> 00:14:06,680 what would make sense and what did make 361 00:14:12,040 --> 00:14:09,470 sense too was if you were sharing the 362 00:14:13,540 --> 00:14:12,050 planet with us you would have a vested 363 00:14:15,970 --> 00:14:13,550 interest in making sure that these 364 00:14:18,670 --> 00:14:15,980 people who have nuclear weapons 365 00:14:20,350 --> 00:14:18,680 don't blow themselves up but also take 366 00:14:22,330 --> 00:14:20,360 you out with them and I think it was 367 00:14:24,940 --> 00:14:22,340 that which is why he talked about the 368 00:14:26,620 --> 00:14:24,950 Rendlesham case in particular I think it 369 00:14:28,270 --> 00:14:26,630 was that that sort of was a turning 370 00:14:30,940 --> 00:14:28,280 point form in thinking oh wait maybe 371 00:14:33,160 --> 00:14:30,950 aliens from out there don't make sense 372 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:33,170 maybe what makes more sense our aliens 373 00:14:37,390 --> 00:14:35,630 from here who have a vested interest in 374 00:14:41,420 --> 00:14:37,400 making sure that this planet is not 375 00:14:46,530 --> 00:14:43,850 [Music] 376 00:14:48,900 --> 00:14:46,540 as you know the power chest is brought 377 00:14:50,970 --> 00:14:48,910 to you by audible.com the internet's 378 00:14:53,310 --> 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00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:35,410 the pair cast send it to news at the 393 00:15:41,790 --> 00:15:36,610 podcast calm 394 00:15:43,500 --> 00:15:41,800 don't forget to visit our forums where 395 00:15:46,050 --> 00:15:43,510 you can talk to fellow listeners just go 396 00:15:48,510 --> 00:15:46,060 to the para cast comm and click on the 397 00:15:55,790 --> 00:15:48,520 forum links that's the forum links at 398 00:16:00,600 --> 00:15:58,770 hi this is tomorrow from Namecheap we're 399 00:16:02,490 --> 00:16:00,610 a domain name and web hosting company 400 00:16:04,530 --> 00:16:02,500 and we really care about our customers 401 00:16:06,900 --> 00:16:04,540 with domain name purchases Namecheap 402 00:16:08,850 --> 00:16:06,910 offers free SSL and free who is guard 403 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:08,860 for a year to protect your identity from 404 00:16:12,780 --> 00:16:10,630 spammers we won't bother you with 405 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:12,790 unwanted messaging in your inbox or upon 406 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00:17:02,070 --> 00:16:59,440 we've all read the book a fascinating 421 00:17:03,600 --> 00:17:02,080 book fascinating thoughts one of the 422 00:17:06,030 --> 00:17:03,610 things he was mentioning in the book as 423 00:17:09,330 --> 00:17:06,040 I recall is the suggestion that some of 424 00:17:11,250 --> 00:17:09,340 the images we see of UFOs even possibly 425 00:17:12,900 --> 00:17:11,260 some of these abductions there really 426 00:17:13,830 --> 00:17:12,910 and go back to what I was saying at the 427 00:17:17,670 --> 00:17:13,840 beginning of the show 428 00:17:19,650 --> 00:17:17,680 they're staged they might be holographic 429 00:17:21,810 --> 00:17:19,660 images projections things like that guys 430 00:17:23,610 --> 00:17:21,820 what do you think its next turn honey 431 00:17:25,620 --> 00:17:23,620 you're on the line for this one's to 432 00:17:27,780 --> 00:17:25,630 take it okay yeah I would agree with 433 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:27,790 that I mean regardless of what the 434 00:17:33,390 --> 00:17:30,190 origin is or the origins are of the 435 00:17:36,270 --> 00:17:33,400 overall UFO mystery you know there are 436 00:17:38,430 --> 00:17:36,280 in my mind at least a number of or a 437 00:17:40,950 --> 00:17:38,440 large number of cases that do seem to be 438 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:40,960 staged you know this whole scenario of 439 00:17:44,970 --> 00:17:42,850 people driving down the road happening 440 00:17:47,040 --> 00:17:44,980 to see the aliens take enclosed soil 441 00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:47,050 samples you know lots of reports like 442 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:49,030 that from the fifties it's like you know 443 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:50,530 Jesus couldn't they find couldn't they 444 00:17:54,630 --> 00:17:52,330 do it in secret where no one's gonna see 445 00:17:56,280 --> 00:17:54,640 him but you know it was like they they 446 00:17:58,290 --> 00:17:56,290 specifically went out of the way to be 447 00:18:00,660 --> 00:17:58,300 seen because I think it kind of 448 00:18:02,370 --> 00:18:00,670 reinforced the idea of alien scientists 449 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:02,380 coming to earth now that doesn't 450 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:04,330 necessarily mean the crypto terrestrial 451 00:18:08,159 --> 00:18:06,730 theory is wrong all right but to me what 452 00:18:10,019 --> 00:18:08,169 it does suggest 453 00:18:13,889 --> 00:18:10,029 some sort of intelligence was trying to 454 00:18:17,489 --> 00:18:13,899 reinforce this idea of alien scientists 455 00:18:19,619 --> 00:18:17,499 taking soil samples you know and the 456 00:18:22,289 --> 00:18:19,629 Rendlesham case for example is another 457 00:18:24,450 --> 00:18:22,299 perfect example where some of the guys 458 00:18:26,639 --> 00:18:24,460 who were at the base actually spoke 459 00:18:28,979 --> 00:18:26,649 about how some of these senior sources 460 00:18:31,529 --> 00:18:28,989 when these incidents happen weren't 461 00:18:34,049 --> 00:18:31,539 focusing their attention on the UFOs 462 00:18:36,269 --> 00:18:34,059 they're actually looking at the lower 463 00:18:38,639 --> 00:18:36,279 ranking guys to see what their reaction 464 00:18:40,080 --> 00:18:38,649 to the incidents were almost as if they 465 00:18:41,759 --> 00:18:40,090 really knew what it was and they were 466 00:18:43,830 --> 00:18:41,769 trying to gauge what everybody else 467 00:18:46,669 --> 00:18:43,840 thought of it so you know and I think 468 00:18:47,899 --> 00:18:46,679 you know you could have a whole show on 469 00:18:51,389 --> 00:18:47,909 stage-managed 470 00:18:53,489 --> 00:18:51,399 UFO incidents to where it does look like 471 00:18:56,549 --> 00:18:53,499 somebody's equivalent of a Hollywood 472 00:18:58,680 --> 00:18:56,559 movie being projected for a specific 473 00:19:01,470 --> 00:18:58,690 reason oh you know greg has a lot of 474 00:19:03,599 --> 00:19:01,480 theories on this as well but I mean when 475 00:19:06,299 --> 00:19:03,609 that happens time and again you have to 476 00:19:08,999 --> 00:19:06,309 wonder if you know it really is 477 00:19:10,919 --> 00:19:09,009 somebody's attempt to not just 478 00:19:13,739 --> 00:19:10,929 acclimatize us to the idea that aliens 479 00:19:15,899 --> 00:19:13,749 here but to actually hide another point 480 00:19:19,409 --> 00:19:15,909 of origin you know I understand the max 481 00:19:20,879 --> 00:19:19,419 hypothesis was just a hypothesis but on 482 00:19:22,950 --> 00:19:20,889 the other hand if you look at it in that 483 00:19:25,139 --> 00:19:22,960 context he actually doesn't make a lot 484 00:19:27,299 --> 00:19:25,149 of sense yeah he had a quote in his book 485 00:19:29,700 --> 00:19:27,309 that I think sums it up nicely and he 486 00:19:32,009 --> 00:19:29,710 wrote for too long we've called them 487 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:32,019 quote aliens assuming that we represent 488 00:19:35,879 --> 00:19:34,330 our planets best and brightest maybe 489 00:19:38,669 --> 00:19:35,889 that's exactly what they want us to 490 00:19:40,470 --> 00:19:38,679 think so the idea that the you know 491 00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:40,480 we're the majority species there's six 492 00:19:45,090 --> 00:19:42,190 billion or whatever of us and there are 493 00:19:47,789 --> 00:19:45,100 M the past civilization very few of them 494 00:19:50,430 --> 00:19:47,799 left as he put it nomadic maybe their 495 00:19:52,229 --> 00:19:50,440 technology is more advanced than ours in 496 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:52,239 certain ways but you know sometimes 497 00:19:57,989 --> 00:19:54,850 numbers count and so they would use 498 00:20:00,419 --> 00:19:57,999 these this idea of whether it's sort of 499 00:20:02,639 --> 00:20:00,429 holographs or whether it's using staged 500 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:02,649 incidences nick was talking about to 501 00:20:07,820 --> 00:20:04,090 convince us that they're from other 502 00:20:09,899 --> 00:20:07,830 worlds to distract to deceive us and to 503 00:20:11,609 --> 00:20:09,909 make us think that they were from 504 00:20:15,239 --> 00:20:11,619 someplace else so that we wouldn't be 505 00:20:17,139 --> 00:20:15,249 looking for them here and I in one of my 506 00:20:19,779 --> 00:20:17,149 rare host moments here I'm 507 00:20:21,339 --> 00:20:19,789 ask Gregg and then Nick one of the 508 00:20:24,099 --> 00:20:21,349 things I put a thread up on the para 509 00:20:25,629 --> 00:20:24,109 cast discussion forms about questions 510 00:20:27,310 --> 00:20:25,639 that you might want us to talk about in 511 00:20:30,700 --> 00:20:27,320 this episode and one of the things that 512 00:20:32,889 --> 00:20:30,710 came up was the idea of underwater UFOs 513 00:20:35,829 --> 00:20:32,899 or us osis they're called I guess and 514 00:20:38,709 --> 00:20:35,839 the fact that our planet is over 70% 515 00:20:41,019 --> 00:20:38,719 water we seem to know more about our 516 00:20:42,759 --> 00:20:41,029 immediate outer space area around our 517 00:20:44,649 --> 00:20:42,769 planet our own solar system than we do 518 00:20:46,450 --> 00:20:44,659 about much of what's under the Earth's 519 00:20:49,570 --> 00:20:46,460 oceans what do you think of the idea 520 00:20:52,029 --> 00:20:49,580 great maybe and then Nick that these 521 00:20:53,709 --> 00:20:52,039 crypto terrestrials if you were people 522 00:20:55,209 --> 00:20:53,719 often think they live in caves or 523 00:20:56,529 --> 00:20:55,219 whatever but what about the fact that 524 00:20:58,570 --> 00:20:56,539 there are the possibility there might be 525 00:21:01,779 --> 00:20:58,580 an underwater civilization in the depths 526 00:21:03,639 --> 00:21:01,789 of the ocean that we are not able to 527 00:21:05,109 --> 00:21:03,649 detect or at least very few of us maybe 528 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:05,119 the government can detect but the rest 529 00:21:10,570 --> 00:21:08,570 of us can tree idea there's a guy that 530 00:21:12,759 --> 00:21:10,580 freaked me out in the mid 90s who said 531 00:21:14,589 --> 00:21:12,769 he was from Naval Intelligence and this 532 00:21:16,299 --> 00:21:14,599 idea has been running around in UFO 533 00:21:17,829 --> 00:21:16,309 circles for a while that the Navy knows 534 00:21:19,959 --> 00:21:17,839 a little more about UFOs than the Air 535 00:21:21,820 --> 00:21:19,969 Force does and the reason nobody ever 536 00:21:24,639 --> 00:21:21,830 talks to them is because the Air Force 537 00:21:27,489 --> 00:21:24,649 is in charge of the air not in the 538 00:21:30,070 --> 00:21:27,499 oceans when the oceans cover 70% or more 539 00:21:32,769 --> 00:21:30,080 of the planet it would be a really easy 540 00:21:34,419 --> 00:21:32,779 place for someone to quote/unquote hide 541 00:21:36,579 --> 00:21:34,429 themselves especially from a 542 00:21:39,399 --> 00:21:36,589 civilization that's not really 543 00:21:42,099 --> 00:21:39,409 conversant with staying underwater for 544 00:21:45,519 --> 00:21:42,109 long periods of time or even had even 545 00:21:48,399 --> 00:21:45,529 mapped a lot of the underwater you know 546 00:21:50,919 --> 00:21:48,409 in detail underwater topography this guy 547 00:21:52,810 --> 00:21:50,929 from the Navy told us of the they had 548 00:21:54,759 --> 00:21:52,820 satellites which could see into all the 549 00:21:56,799 --> 00:21:54,769 oceans all the way to the bottom I don't 550 00:21:59,079 --> 00:21:56,809 know if that's true I haven't been able 551 00:22:00,579 --> 00:21:59,089 to check up on it but it would lend 552 00:22:03,430 --> 00:22:00,589 credence to the fact that there's some 553 00:22:05,109 --> 00:22:03,440 kind of naval connection Richard Tsao 554 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:05,119 terrain is underground bases and tunnels 555 00:22:10,749 --> 00:22:08,570 book does actually talk about underwater 556 00:22:12,190 --> 00:22:10,759 facilities and how those had been 557 00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:12,200 planned and maybe some of them had even 558 00:22:17,379 --> 00:22:14,210 been built which would be even more hard 559 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:17,389 to find and inaccessible buildings then 560 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:20,210 the underground bases 561 00:22:24,489 --> 00:22:22,730 on land so yeah it's it's and there's a 562 00:22:28,289 --> 00:22:24,499 very very large body of literature 563 00:22:31,570 --> 00:22:28,299 dealing with UFOs coming out of it into 564 00:22:33,489 --> 00:22:31,580 the oceans and lakes etc well of course 565 00:22:36,100 --> 00:22:33,499 looking at things like this we have to 566 00:22:39,820 --> 00:22:36,110 say okay the logical question people 567 00:22:41,950 --> 00:22:39,830 might ask Greg Nick Paul is if they're 568 00:22:44,379 --> 00:22:41,960 here I mean we explore the earth all the 569 00:22:46,779 --> 00:22:44,389 time how do they keep hidden from us who 570 00:22:50,139 --> 00:22:46,789 wants to grab that one Nick yeah well my 571 00:22:53,440 --> 00:22:50,149 argument would be a mystery from an ET 572 00:22:55,869 --> 00:22:53,450 context unless they have a really 573 00:22:58,539 --> 00:22:55,879 advanced way of getting from point A to 574 00:22:59,769 --> 00:22:58,549 point B and fantastic times that don't 575 00:23:01,629 --> 00:22:59,779 involve too straightforward linear 576 00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:01,639 travel you know for this star systems 577 00:23:07,269 --> 00:23:04,129 are here then they would have to have 578 00:23:09,580 --> 00:23:07,279 some sort of outpost base in simplistic 579 00:23:11,799 --> 00:23:09,590 terms somewhere pretty close to the 580 00:23:14,590 --> 00:23:11,809 earth if not on its now if you know if 581 00:23:16,690 --> 00:23:14,600 you take that logical approach if there 582 00:23:18,999 --> 00:23:16,700 is an alien base on the earth here we 583 00:23:21,159 --> 00:23:19,009 haven't found that so why should it be 584 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:21,169 so difficult for crypto terrestrials to 585 00:23:24,609 --> 00:23:23,330 hide themselves as well you know I think 586 00:23:26,470 --> 00:23:24,619 we have to look at it from the eighty 587 00:23:28,210 --> 00:23:26,480 context as well that that if they're 588 00:23:29,859 --> 00:23:28,220 here they have to have some sort of 589 00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:29,869 stage cost so I think that's an 590 00:23:34,930 --> 00:23:32,090 important point to make and I think also 591 00:23:37,299 --> 00:23:34,940 you know that there's this idea that if 592 00:23:39,159 --> 00:23:37,309 there's this advanced race of crypto to 593 00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:39,169 wrest riyals living amongst us you know 594 00:23:42,730 --> 00:23:40,850 it's like Paul said some of their 595 00:23:45,369 --> 00:23:42,740 technology may be more advanced but they 596 00:23:47,350 --> 00:23:45,379 could be quite impoverished what if they 597 00:23:50,019 --> 00:23:47,360 are the true irony is that yes they're 598 00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:50,029 far more advanced of us but they are 599 00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:52,970 living in you know kind of a poverty 600 00:23:57,340 --> 00:23:55,850 type scenario nomadic shuffling around a 601 00:23:59,619 --> 00:23:57,350 planet on planets under cover of 602 00:24:01,869 --> 00:23:59,629 darkness you know and just finding the 603 00:24:03,639 --> 00:24:01,879 best way to survive and hide out and and 604 00:24:06,070 --> 00:24:03,649 kind of trying to convince us they have 605 00:24:08,139 --> 00:24:06,080 an absolute armada of craft when you 606 00:24:10,859 --> 00:24:08,149 know they may be down to like their last 607 00:24:13,060 --> 00:24:10,869 equivalents of 16 or 17 608 00:24:15,340 --> 00:24:13,070 forty-five-year-old Volkswagens or 609 00:24:16,899 --> 00:24:15,350 whatever you know it could be something 610 00:24:18,460 --> 00:24:16,909 like that the reason we're not finding 611 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:18,470 them is because they actually don't have 612 00:24:24,369 --> 00:24:22,490 a huge population and a huge resource of 613 00:24:26,440 --> 00:24:24,379 materials you know which would make it 614 00:24:28,060 --> 00:24:26,450 very easy for them to hide actually the 615 00:24:29,649 --> 00:24:28,070 interesting thing that Paco was pointed 616 00:24:31,030 --> 00:24:29,659 out to Matt the crypto terrestrial 617 00:24:33,730 --> 00:24:31,040 hypothesis 618 00:24:35,670 --> 00:24:33,740 it's testable you know you you can go 619 00:24:37,690 --> 00:24:35,680 out and you can look for signs of this 620 00:24:40,090 --> 00:24:37,700 or at least he thought you could 621 00:24:42,340 --> 00:24:40,100 probably more easily than you can look 622 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:42,350 for signs of aliens from other worlds 623 00:24:47,950 --> 00:24:45,410 coming here so he viewed it as a 624 00:24:49,930 --> 00:24:47,960 testable hypothesis if you put some time 625 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:49,940 and resources into it you could actually 626 00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:51,410 go out and see if you could draw links 627 00:24:55,690 --> 00:24:53,810 from certain things that might show yeah 628 00:24:58,240 --> 00:24:55,700 maybe there is something here we just 629 00:25:00,250 --> 00:24:58,250 haven't been looking for it certainly 630 00:25:03,010 --> 00:25:00,260 UFO researchers haven't been looking for 631 00:25:06,040 --> 00:25:03,020 it because as I remember soon as Mac 632 00:25:08,380 --> 00:25:06,050 brought this this idea out everybody in 633 00:25:09,940 --> 00:25:08,390 the eth camp which is why the first 634 00:25:12,610 --> 00:25:09,950 chapter in Mac's book is basically 635 00:25:15,910 --> 00:25:12,620 loading up a shotgun aiming it at the 636 00:25:17,830 --> 00:25:15,920 ETH camp with a new falta G and letting 637 00:25:19,690 --> 00:25:17,840 him have it with both barrels because 638 00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:19,700 they went after him partly because I 639 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:21,170 think they're they're threatened by any 640 00:25:25,450 --> 00:25:23,330 alternative idea of a lay got it years 641 00:25:27,280 --> 00:25:25,460 ago and I think Mac gah didn't was going 642 00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:27,290 to continue to get it they're threatened 643 00:25:31,300 --> 00:25:28,730 by anything that challenges the 644 00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:31,310 extra-terrestrial hypothesis I think for 645 00:25:34,900 --> 00:25:33,650 two reasons one it would show that maybe 646 00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:34,910 they've been barking up the wrong tree 647 00:25:37,840 --> 00:25:36,500 while they've been looking out there 648 00:25:39,940 --> 00:25:37,850 maybe they should have been looking down 649 00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:39,950 here and maybe if they had been looking 650 00:25:43,210 --> 00:25:41,360 down here they might have they might 651 00:25:45,370 --> 00:25:43,220 have found something by now because his 652 00:25:47,740 --> 00:25:45,380 nick has pointed out in interviews that 653 00:25:49,210 --> 00:25:47,750 I've done with them it's been 60 years 654 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:49,220 and we're no closer to an 655 00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:52,010 extraterrestrial proof than we were 60 656 00:25:56,410 --> 00:25:53,840 years ago so I think that's one thing 657 00:25:59,320 --> 00:25:56,420 and you know the other thing is I think 658 00:26:00,760 --> 00:25:59,330 they want to believe in Mac and I talked 659 00:26:02,770 --> 00:26:00,770 about this a lot this is this idea of 660 00:26:04,510 --> 00:26:02,780 belief they want to believe going 661 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:04,520 straight back to the contactees that 662 00:26:08,260 --> 00:26:05,810 they're it's almost like they've 663 00:26:10,540 --> 00:26:08,270 transposed a belief in God because they 664 00:26:12,040 --> 00:26:10,550 don't generally seem to have that but 665 00:26:13,810 --> 00:26:12,050 they want a superior being that comes 666 00:26:15,070 --> 00:26:13,820 from somewhere other than here they can 667 00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:15,080 provide us with some sort of moral 668 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:16,880 guidance or eventually will save us you 669 00:26:20,950 --> 00:26:18,530 get that a lot in the extraterrestrial 670 00:26:22,090 --> 00:26:20,960 can't whether they say it overtly or 671 00:26:24,340 --> 00:26:22,100 whether you have to read between the 672 00:26:25,800 --> 00:26:24,350 lines whereas the crypto terrestrial 673 00:26:28,300 --> 00:26:25,810 hypothesis has none of that 674 00:26:30,130 --> 00:26:28,310 frankly you know they wouldn't care at 675 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:30,140 all about us they care more about 676 00:26:33,610 --> 00:26:31,610 themselves and protecting their own 677 00:26:36,580 --> 00:26:33,620 place whatever is left of their society 678 00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:36,590 so you know looking for Klaatu to come 679 00:26:41,529 --> 00:26:38,720 here and say we're part of the galactic 680 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:41,539 federation get your act together or 681 00:26:46,060 --> 00:26:43,970 will destroy you yes whereas the crypto 682 00:26:49,239 --> 00:26:46,070 terrestrials there would be no question 683 00:26:50,919 --> 00:26:49,249 that they would be a competitive species 684 00:26:52,779 --> 00:26:50,929 with us and we might seem to have the 685 00:26:54,369 --> 00:26:52,789 upper hand now but you know Mac would 686 00:26:56,499 --> 00:26:54,379 would talk about ideas well maybe 687 00:26:59,169 --> 00:26:56,509 they're just biding their time who knows 688 00:27:00,729 --> 00:26:59,179 but the one thing that I would throw out 689 00:27:01,869 --> 00:27:00,739 there this kind of reminds me of 690 00:27:04,239 --> 00:27:01,879 something else that he would often say 691 00:27:06,789 --> 00:27:04,249 and I'll throw this over to Greg Greg 692 00:27:08,409 --> 00:27:06,799 you and I catch this Greg you're on the 693 00:27:10,239 --> 00:27:08,419 other side of the country so you have to 694 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:10,249 kind of catch it's a long trip I'll send 695 00:27:16,180 --> 00:27:13,970 it slow pitch this is a Jamie Moyer 696 00:27:18,070 --> 00:27:16,190 question if there's any baseball fans 697 00:27:20,649 --> 00:27:18,080 out there they get the reference yeah 698 00:27:22,060 --> 00:27:20,659 you know human history we can really we 699 00:27:23,739 --> 00:27:22,070 can barely figure out what happened in 700 00:27:26,109 --> 00:27:23,749 the last hundred years but recorded 701 00:27:27,909 --> 00:27:26,119 human history lasts maybe 2,000 3,000 702 00:27:31,269 --> 00:27:27,919 years where we have something 703 00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:31,279 approaching a semi reliable record at 704 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:32,570 least a few things in our history 705 00:27:37,180 --> 00:27:34,369 whereas the planet is billions of years 706 00:27:38,889 --> 00:27:37,190 old so I would ask you Greg does it 707 00:27:41,019 --> 00:27:38,899 strike you odd that one of the primary 708 00:27:42,339 --> 00:27:41,029 criticisms that's often leveled against 709 00:27:45,099 --> 00:27:42,349 guys like Matt could come up with this 710 00:27:46,889 --> 00:27:45,109 indigenous humanoid theory is well if 711 00:27:49,180 --> 00:27:46,899 there were other creatures on the planet 712 00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,190 surely we would have found evidence of 713 00:27:53,710 --> 00:27:51,440 it by now and it should be obvious 714 00:27:55,419 --> 00:27:53,720 whereas if these creatures their 715 00:27:57,820 --> 00:27:55,429 civilization vanished five or ten 716 00:27:59,109 --> 00:27:57,830 thousand years ago there's a show on A&E 717 00:28:01,029 --> 00:27:59,119 all you have to do is watch it you know 718 00:28:03,009 --> 00:28:01,039 after humans or something and they 719 00:28:06,009 --> 00:28:03,019 basically say well if we all disappeared 720 00:28:07,659 --> 00:28:06,019 tomorrow most of what our society our 721 00:28:09,700 --> 00:28:07,669 civilization represented would be gone 722 00:28:10,869 --> 00:28:09,710 in a hundred years and then a thousand 723 00:28:12,549 --> 00:28:10,879 you'd probably not know that we were 724 00:28:13,930 --> 00:28:12,559 ever here so what do you think of that 725 00:28:15,849 --> 00:28:13,940 Greg what do you think of that general 726 00:28:18,249 --> 00:28:15,859 idea that whatever vestiges as their 727 00:28:21,039 --> 00:28:18,259 civilization might exist are lost in the 728 00:28:22,839 --> 00:28:21,049 sands of time you know it makes a lot of 729 00:28:25,450 --> 00:28:22,849 sense that it would be lost especially 730 00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:25,460 considering how long the earth has been 731 00:28:29,259 --> 00:28:27,470 around and how long living things have 732 00:28:32,129 --> 00:28:29,269 been on it living things with brains 733 00:28:35,789 --> 00:28:32,139 have been here a far longer than you can 734 00:28:38,169 --> 00:28:35,799 then there whatever their technological 735 00:28:40,450 --> 00:28:38,179 creations however long that would take 736 00:28:43,149 --> 00:28:40,460 for them to break down and the other 737 00:28:45,119 --> 00:28:43,159 thing is you've got this anthropocentric 738 00:28:48,849 --> 00:28:45,129 set thinking that there would be 739 00:28:51,310 --> 00:28:48,859 buildings and cars and you know etc etc 740 00:28:54,130 --> 00:28:51,320 whereas why can you not pause 741 00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:54,140 some kind of group that lived in harmony 742 00:28:57,580 --> 00:28:56,000 completely with the environment which 743 00:28:59,770 --> 00:28:57,590 made it almost indistinguishable from 744 00:29:02,110 --> 00:28:59,780 the normal environment you know what I 745 00:29:04,150 --> 00:29:02,120 mean anything that they they built or 746 00:29:06,940 --> 00:29:04,160 that they the use might have been very 747 00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:06,950 small or would break down very quickly 748 00:29:11,740 --> 00:29:09,650 so therefore the movie avatar was really 749 00:29:13,150 --> 00:29:11,750 about the crypto terrestrials yeah well 750 00:29:14,710 --> 00:29:13,160 some people said that and then of course 751 00:29:16,420 --> 00:29:14,720 there's you know evidence of things 752 00:29:17,020 --> 00:29:16,430 under under the oceans and then the 753 00:29:21,130 --> 00:29:17,030 crust 754 00:29:22,750 --> 00:29:21,140 moving around so some of the stuff 755 00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:22,760 that's above the ocean is now under it 756 00:29:27,610 --> 00:29:25,610 it's you know and vice versa so I think 757 00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:27,620 it would be very hard to find any kind 758 00:29:32,100 --> 00:29:29,270 of evidence of such things unless you 759 00:29:35,050 --> 00:29:32,110 think about something like those large 760 00:29:36,340 --> 00:29:35,060 spheres in in South America which which 761 00:29:38,500 --> 00:29:36,350 don't seem to have any purpose for 762 00:29:39,850 --> 00:29:38,510 anything at all but they find them 763 00:29:41,350 --> 00:29:39,860 everywhere from the size of a large 764 00:29:42,370 --> 00:29:41,360 building to them you know so when you 765 00:29:50,550 --> 00:29:42,380 can hold in your hand 766 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:52,999 [Music] 767 00:29:57,599 --> 00:29:55,330 picture this you're on the phone with a 768 00:30:00,779 --> 00:29:57,609 client or colleague trying to explain 769 00:30:02,999 --> 00:30:00,789 something visual a PowerPoint a keynote 770 00:30:05,669 --> 00:30:03,009 presentation a website but it's 771 00:30:06,659 --> 00:30:05,679 frustrating because they can't see what 772 00:30:09,389 --> 00:30:06,669 you're talking about 773 00:30:11,999 --> 00:30:09,399 the solution good news they can if you 774 00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:12,009 invite them to an online meeting using 775 00:30:17,219 --> 00:30:15,070 GoToMeeting then they can see your 776 00:30:19,589 --> 00:30:17,229 computer desktop on their computer 777 00:30:21,629 --> 00:30:19,599 screen so you can show them what you're 778 00:30:23,009 --> 00:30:21,639 talking about by use goto meeting all 779 00:30:25,680 --> 00:30:23,019 the time to collaborate with colleagues 780 00:30:28,799 --> 00:30:25,690 and with clients you can try goto 781 00:30:32,159 --> 00:30:28,809 meeting free for 30 days but you must 782 00:30:35,940 --> 00:30:32,169 visit goto meeting slashed podcasts 783 00:30:42,950 --> 00:30:35,950 let's go to meeting.com slash podcasts 784 00:30:48,820 --> 00:30:46,010 this is the bare cast you never know 785 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:48,830 what's gonna happen next 786 00:30:54,490 --> 00:30:52,010 [Music] 787 00:30:56,680 --> 00:30:54,500 we have co-host Paul Kimball with us 788 00:30:58,870 --> 00:30:56,690 with Nicholas Redfern Greg Bishop we're 789 00:31:01,480 --> 00:30:58,880 talking about the crypto terrestrials by 790 00:31:03,070 --> 00:31:01,490 the late Mac Tony's kind of a totally 791 00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:03,080 new Wayman we've got totally new but 792 00:31:07,810 --> 00:31:05,570 certainly a unique and flood provoking 793 00:31:11,409 --> 00:31:07,820 way of looking at the UFO mystery 794 00:31:13,299 --> 00:31:11,419 now this logically guys and you can jump 795 00:31:16,150 --> 00:31:13,309 in wherever you want to go takes us back 796 00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:16,160 to ancient astronauts so of course in 797 00:31:22,060 --> 00:31:19,730 early days we came in touch with higher 798 00:31:24,580 --> 00:31:22,070 intelligences we call them the gods 799 00:31:27,430 --> 00:31:24,590 so was that evidence of their presence 800 00:31:29,620 --> 00:31:27,440 then communicating with us who wants to 801 00:31:31,810 --> 00:31:29,630 take that just say something say 802 00:31:34,659 --> 00:31:31,820 something on that mainly you know the 803 00:31:36,100 --> 00:31:34,669 idea that if you look back into your 804 00:31:38,110 --> 00:31:36,110 pretty much all cultures ancient 805 00:31:41,020 --> 00:31:38,120 cultures around the world you know you 806 00:31:43,810 --> 00:31:41,030 find stories of higher entities superior 807 00:31:45,789 --> 00:31:43,820 beings quote coming down from above you 808 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:45,799 know trying to teach the natives how to 809 00:31:50,919 --> 00:31:48,770 live and relating some sort of spiritual 810 00:31:53,230 --> 00:31:50,929 wisdom you know whether you take that in 811 00:31:54,940 --> 00:31:53,240 a religious context of Christian context 812 00:31:57,400 --> 00:31:54,950 you know another religion whether 813 00:31:59,500 --> 00:31:57,410 Buddhism whatever you know that the 814 00:32:02,230 --> 00:31:59,510 central theme is that there are higher 815 00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:02,240 beings who you're trying to pull us on 816 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:04,490 the right track now you know some people 817 00:32:09,340 --> 00:32:07,010 will and certainly do millions of people 818 00:32:11,680 --> 00:32:09,350 place out in a definitively religious 819 00:32:14,710 --> 00:32:11,690 context you know it's God Jesus butter 820 00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:14,720 whoever however you know if you again if 821 00:32:19,270 --> 00:32:16,880 you look at it from max perspective if 822 00:32:21,549 --> 00:32:19,280 there was some sort of superior race 823 00:32:22,900 --> 00:32:21,559 that like Greg says an important point 824 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:22,910 that you know we look at it from the 825 00:32:27,820 --> 00:32:25,610 perspective having cars skyscrapers TV 826 00:32:30,130 --> 00:32:27,830 maybe they didn't rely on that sort of 827 00:32:31,990 --> 00:32:30,140 technology or that sort of society and 828 00:32:34,620 --> 00:32:32,000 that's why there are many remnants of it 829 00:32:37,780 --> 00:32:34,630 left but if they were on a downslide and 830 00:32:39,970 --> 00:32:37,790 wanting to survive well maybe when we 831 00:32:41,650 --> 00:32:39,980 were on the upswing but in the very 832 00:32:44,830 --> 00:32:41,660 early stages that would be the best time 833 00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:44,840 for them to come down and try and mold 834 00:32:48,940 --> 00:32:47,090 us you know the unruly little kids 835 00:32:51,159 --> 00:32:48,950 started to grow up mold us into 836 00:32:53,650 --> 00:32:51,169 something that could be kind of 837 00:32:55,960 --> 00:32:53,660 controlled or kept on a leash which 838 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:55,970 obviously hasn't happened but my 839 00:33:00,820 --> 00:32:57,770 argument be would that would be the time 840 00:33:03,190 --> 00:33:00,830 to do it not when we are some sort of 841 00:33:06,100 --> 00:33:03,200 superior force to gradually take them on 842 00:33:07,450 --> 00:33:06,110 but equally when we're not savage cave 843 00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:07,460 people but we're we're somewhere in 844 00:33:12,490 --> 00:33:10,490 between where we can be controlled but 845 00:33:14,380 --> 00:33:12,500 equally we can understand the message as 846 00:33:17,020 --> 00:33:14,390 well so arguably it would be common 847 00:33:19,180 --> 00:33:17,030 sense for them to come to 340 thousand 848 00:33:21,549 --> 00:33:19,190 years ago when we were you know starting 849 00:33:23,350 --> 00:33:21,559 to become civilized beings and would 850 00:33:26,020 --> 00:33:23,360 understand the message but we wouldn't 851 00:33:28,090 --> 00:33:26,030 be able to raise a hostile force against 852 00:33:30,910 --> 00:33:28,100 them if we wanted to there's this idea - 853 00:33:32,530 --> 00:33:30,920 that it's a civilization Mac would often 854 00:33:34,570 --> 00:33:32,540 talk about it being a civilization in 855 00:33:37,270 --> 00:33:34,580 decline maybe they were hit by some 856 00:33:39,909 --> 00:33:37,280 natural disaster or a disease or 857 00:33:42,610 --> 00:33:39,919 whatever but there's also the 858 00:33:45,490 --> 00:33:42,620 possibility that he raises in his book 859 00:33:48,250 --> 00:33:45,500 that it's a civilization that simply 860 00:33:49,570 --> 00:33:48,260 evolved that eventually they worked 861 00:33:52,030 --> 00:33:49,580 their way up into a form of higher 862 00:33:53,500 --> 00:33:52,040 consciousness I just Greg I just wanted 863 00:33:55,450 --> 00:33:53,510 Nick I just want to read something to 864 00:33:57,130 --> 00:33:55,460 you and to the pair of cast listeners it 865 00:33:59,140 --> 00:33:57,140 might not have read the book from the 866 00:34:00,940 --> 00:33:59,150 crypto terrestrials and it's oh it's a 867 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:00,950 little long but then get you to comment 868 00:34:05,140 --> 00:34:03,290 on it Mac writes given reports of 869 00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:05,150 humanoid beings materializing and 870 00:34:08,680 --> 00:34:07,130 disappearing it's tempting to speculate 871 00:34:11,109 --> 00:34:08,690 that our visitors have mastered a 872 00:34:13,210 --> 00:34:11,119 technology of consciousness able to 873 00:34:15,310 --> 00:34:13,220 manipulate their own wave functions and 874 00:34:17,349 --> 00:34:15,320 skip back and forth between multiple 875 00:34:19,240 --> 00:34:17,359 universes at the speed of thought this 876 00:34:21,580 --> 00:34:19,250 is one explanation for the lack of 877 00:34:23,889 --> 00:34:21,590 physical evidence they might lurk in 878 00:34:26,859 --> 00:34:23,899 hyperspace as well as familiar 3d 879 00:34:28,450 --> 00:34:26,869 space-time moreover this form of travel 880 00:34:30,490 --> 00:34:28,460 might be accomplished without the need 881 00:34:32,950 --> 00:34:30,500 for energy intensive machinery if 882 00:34:35,230 --> 00:34:32,960 shamanic experiences are any indication 883 00:34:36,810 --> 00:34:35,240 the ability to transcend space and time 884 00:34:38,950 --> 00:34:36,820 might be a more fitting subject for 885 00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:38,960 parapsychologists than theoretical 886 00:34:43,330 --> 00:34:41,210 physicists given that consciousness is 887 00:34:45,310 --> 00:34:43,340 likely a quantum function deeply 888 00:34:47,830 --> 00:34:45,320 entangled with the rest of the cosmos is 889 00:34:51,220 --> 00:34:47,840 it unreasonable to seek out traces of 890 00:34:53,590 --> 00:34:51,230 the alien among us maybe the signal SETI 891 00:34:56,470 --> 00:34:53,600 astronomers await will emanate from the 892 00:34:58,480 --> 00:34:56,480 depths of self cunningly disguised as 893 00:35:00,490 --> 00:34:58,490 human great what do you think of that 894 00:35:02,430 --> 00:35:00,500 well I agree with it completely the 895 00:35:05,410 --> 00:35:02,440 thing the thing about the book is that 896 00:35:07,630 --> 00:35:05,420 Mac what he did was it's a hundred and 897 00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:07,640 twenty page thought experiment a lot of 898 00:35:11,230 --> 00:35:09,650 people reading the book or even asking 899 00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:11,240 about they say well did he believe this 900 00:35:14,590 --> 00:35:13,100 even is even Patrick asked me this on 901 00:35:16,720 --> 00:35:14,600 the last pair of casts were we talking 902 00:35:18,310 --> 00:35:16,730 about that did he believe what he wrote 903 00:35:22,150 --> 00:35:18,320 he believed it while he was 904 00:35:25,630 --> 00:35:22,160 writing it and he Dell very far into 905 00:35:28,540 --> 00:35:25,640 this thought experiment and probably is 906 00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:28,550 this is what the best UFO and paranormal 907 00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:30,650 writing does raise far more questions 908 00:35:34,930 --> 00:35:32,810 and then provide answers 909 00:35:39,250 --> 00:35:34,940 that's basically what I like about the 910 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:39,260 book Nick pull just pull just read you 911 00:35:44,380 --> 00:35:41,210 know I think some important one because 912 00:35:46,150 --> 00:35:44,390 if we listen to those words I think one 913 00:35:48,690 --> 00:35:46,160 of the things that a lot of people with 914 00:35:51,490 --> 00:35:48,700 in ufology forget is they take a very 915 00:35:53,110 --> 00:35:51,500 simplistic approach if aliens are out 916 00:35:55,420 --> 00:35:53,120 there they're very much like us you know 917 00:35:57,730 --> 00:35:55,430 there's starship captains and they 918 00:35:59,440 --> 00:35:57,740 nuts-and-bolts craft and but they're 919 00:36:01,990 --> 00:35:59,450 just a more advanced version of us and 920 00:36:04,150 --> 00:36:02,000 this to me is the most simplistic stupid 921 00:36:05,920 --> 00:36:04,160 lazy approach to take you know these 922 00:36:08,140 --> 00:36:05,930 things are alien then they're 923 00:36:10,420 --> 00:36:08,150 definitively alien you know that there's 924 00:36:12,190 --> 00:36:10,430 going to be so different to us and you 925 00:36:13,930 --> 00:36:12,200 could apply that to the crypto 926 00:36:16,930 --> 00:36:13,940 terrestrial Theory you know the whole 927 00:36:19,990 --> 00:36:16,940 idea of alternative means of 928 00:36:23,260 --> 00:36:20,000 communication contact Holograms etc I 929 00:36:24,940 --> 00:36:23,270 think is something to bear in mind you 930 00:36:27,370 --> 00:36:24,950 know when we're looking at what's going 931 00:36:30,280 --> 00:36:27,380 on and trying to determine what these 932 00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:30,290 entities are where they're from and what 933 00:36:33,900 --> 00:36:32,540 they wants you know there's it's like 934 00:36:37,300 --> 00:36:33,910 that point yeah there's so many 935 00:36:39,250 --> 00:36:37,310 illogical things within the abduction 936 00:36:41,620 --> 00:36:39,260 scenario you know nobody noby everything 937 00:36:43,060 --> 00:36:41,630 interrupts an abduction and gets caught 938 00:36:45,340 --> 00:36:43,070 you know the aliens get caught in the 939 00:36:47,320 --> 00:36:45,350 middle of it well maybe it is some sort 940 00:36:52,030 --> 00:36:47,330 of brain borne hologram you know maybe 941 00:36:54,640 --> 00:36:52,040 it's designed to perpetuate the idea of 942 00:36:57,460 --> 00:36:54,650 aliens kidnapping people to take their 943 00:36:59,710 --> 00:36:57,470 DNA eggs and sperm you know perhaps a 944 00:37:01,600 --> 00:36:59,720 lot of it is simply camouflage and 945 00:37:03,010 --> 00:37:01,610 subterfuge you know we just don't know 946 00:37:05,350 --> 00:37:03,020 but I think the important thing is that 947 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:05,360 Mac was willing to look at these issues 948 00:37:10,270 --> 00:37:07,610 because he wasn't belief driven so many 949 00:37:12,100 --> 00:37:10,280 people in ufology support the ETH are so 950 00:37:13,990 --> 00:37:12,110 caught up in the belief system that they 951 00:37:15,550 --> 00:37:14,000 just they cannot get their head around 952 00:37:18,430 --> 00:37:15,560 the idea that they might be wrong and 953 00:37:20,380 --> 00:37:18,440 just just cannot even consider or think 954 00:37:22,450 --> 00:37:20,390 about it's picking up on that point Nick 955 00:37:23,650 --> 00:37:22,460 and continuing with you I want to read 956 00:37:25,930 --> 00:37:23,660 something else from the book because 957 00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:25,940 that sort of brings us back to the 958 00:37:31,690 --> 00:37:27,770 tenuous relationship that the 959 00:37:34,030 --> 00:37:31,700 four of us you Greg me and Mac often 960 00:37:36,160 --> 00:37:34,040 have with the it's a weird term but the 961 00:37:38,350 --> 00:37:36,170 mainstream you Falah djegal community of 962 00:37:40,090 --> 00:37:38,360 ETH supporters so I want to read you 963 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:40,100 something from his book here the you 964 00:37:43,720 --> 00:37:41,810 falah JaVale community he writes suffers 965 00:37:45,580 --> 00:37:43,730 from creative anemia it has a 966 00:37:47,710 --> 00:37:45,590 disheartening tendency to refute 967 00:37:48,340 --> 00:37:47,720 dissenting voices even those within its 968 00:37:50,650 --> 00:37:48,350 own ranks 969 00:37:52,780 --> 00:37:50,660 with tired streets that unnecessarily 970 00:37:54,700 --> 00:37:52,790 polarized the debate such as it is 971 00:37:56,350 --> 00:37:54,710 between cautious advocates of the 972 00:37:59,050 --> 00:37:56,360 extra-terrestrial hypothesis and 973 00:38:00,670 --> 00:37:59,060 know-nothing science popularizers who 974 00:38:03,100 --> 00:38:00,680 seemed genuinely and capable of 975 00:38:05,290 --> 00:38:03,110 considering the UFO inquiry outside the 976 00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:05,300 cognitive barriers posed by decades of 977 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:07,730 cheesy sci-fi cinema and the legacy of 978 00:38:12,010 --> 00:38:10,010 myriad true believers having dotingly 979 00:38:14,109 --> 00:38:12,020 constructed a theoretical house of straw 980 00:38:15,880 --> 00:38:14,119 many you falah djegal proponents 981 00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:15,890 secretly prefer the tenuous camaraderie 982 00:38:20,290 --> 00:38:18,140 of their peers to the much more exciting 983 00:38:22,450 --> 00:38:20,300 prospect of being taken seriously by 984 00:38:24,370 --> 00:38:22,460 science but the area of genuine 985 00:38:26,950 --> 00:38:24,380 hypotheses seems to be nearing an end 986 00:38:28,380 --> 00:38:26,960 the quote old guard inexplicably 987 00:38:31,300 --> 00:38:28,390 enamored of the extra-terrestrial 988 00:38:34,060 --> 00:38:31,310 hypothesis is now engaged in little more 989 00:38:36,220 --> 00:38:34,070 than ideological turf wars the boons of 990 00:38:38,650 --> 00:38:36,230 speculation have been quietly set aside 991 00:38:40,900 --> 00:38:38,660 in favor of models that make just enough 992 00:38:42,910 --> 00:38:40,910 sense to allow their defenders to issue 993 00:38:46,210 --> 00:38:42,920 brutal proclamations with semi straight 994 00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:46,220 faces meanwhile the Enigma persists as 995 00:38:50,890 --> 00:38:48,410 always seemingly just beyond our 996 00:38:53,320 --> 00:38:50,900 comprehension and we have the nerve to 997 00:38:57,370 --> 00:38:53,330 wonder why that's pretty Stern stuff 998 00:38:59,170 --> 00:38:57,380 from young mr. Toney's one but you've 999 00:39:00,880 --> 00:38:59,180 been on the receiving end of it perhaps 1000 00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:00,890 even more than Greg and I and then maybe 1001 00:39:04,750 --> 00:39:02,690 even Mac what do you think of that what 1002 00:39:06,310 --> 00:39:04,760 do you think of the UFO community what 1003 00:39:08,470 --> 00:39:06,320 do you think the reaction is gonna be 1004 00:39:11,980 --> 00:39:08,480 when they read the crypto terrestrials 1005 00:39:14,530 --> 00:39:11,990 the eth proponents and what do you think 1006 00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:14,540 of Mac's sort of there's no other word 1007 00:39:19,450 --> 00:39:17,810 for it attack on mainstream ethology you 1008 00:39:21,940 --> 00:39:19,460 know with terms like creative anemia 1009 00:39:23,980 --> 00:39:21,950 which this which is pretty strong stuff 1010 00:39:26,890 --> 00:39:23,990 that most people within the eth camp 1011 00:39:30,250 --> 00:39:26,900 probably won't understand but what do 1012 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:30,260 you think well number one written those 1013 00:39:33,700 --> 00:39:32,090 words you know Mac in a great way with 1014 00:39:35,200 --> 00:39:33,710 words you know I would have said exactly 1015 00:39:36,940 --> 00:39:35,210 the same thing he would have probably 1016 00:39:38,050 --> 00:39:36,950 put it more eloquently with me than me I 1017 00:39:39,579 --> 00:39:38,060 would have used probably a few more 1018 00:39:44,049 --> 00:39:39,589 four-letter words or 1019 00:39:46,900 --> 00:39:44,059 but joking aside I am absolutely 100% 1020 00:39:50,559 --> 00:39:46,910 spot on and the reason why he was so on 1021 00:39:53,319 --> 00:39:50,569 target is because the the search for the 1022 00:39:59,709 --> 00:39:53,329 truth about extraterrestrials excuse me 1023 00:40:03,279 --> 00:39:59,719 that was a bit of Irish fever has become 1024 00:40:06,039 --> 00:40:03,289 so focused upon the ATH that what has 1025 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:06,049 happened is that it's because we 1026 00:40:11,229 --> 00:40:08,210 actually has become like a religion to 1027 00:40:13,569 --> 00:40:11,239 where people have faith that the a th is 1028 00:40:15,339 --> 00:40:13,579 correct they accept as a genuine UFO 1029 00:40:17,559 --> 00:40:15,349 phenomenon but they don't need to look 1030 00:40:19,630 --> 00:40:17,569 for what the origin is because they have 1031 00:40:23,380 --> 00:40:19,640 faith that it's extraterrestrial when 1032 00:40:26,140 --> 00:40:23,390 faith takes the place of an enquiring 1033 00:40:28,900 --> 00:40:26,150 mind then then everything's lost you 1034 00:40:31,299 --> 00:40:28,910 know that doesn't mean the 88 is is 1035 00:40:33,999 --> 00:40:31,309 false it may well be the case that some 1036 00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:34,009 UFO encounters and sightings are due to 1037 00:40:38,529 --> 00:40:36,130 the presence of real literal 1038 00:40:41,319 --> 00:40:38,539 flesh-and-blood extraterrestrials but 1039 00:40:43,870 --> 00:40:41,329 when you base your belief system or 1040 00:40:45,549 --> 00:40:43,880 conclusions on a theory for which there 1041 00:40:48,219 --> 00:40:45,559 is no actual hard evidence but you 1042 00:40:51,370 --> 00:40:48,229 overwhelmingly support it no matter what 1043 00:40:53,410 --> 00:40:51,380 then the subject is in big trouble it's 1044 00:40:55,749 --> 00:40:53,420 the same way within cryptozoology 1045 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:55,759 somebody supports the idea come hell or 1046 00:41:00,009 --> 00:40:57,650 high water that the Loch Ness monsters 1047 00:41:02,620 --> 00:41:00,019 are a surviving colony of Plescia source 1048 00:41:04,390 --> 00:41:02,630 they may be but people don't want to 1049 00:41:05,859 --> 00:41:04,400 hear the far more down-to-earth and to 1050 00:41:07,749 --> 00:41:05,869 me more plausible idea that they could 1051 00:41:10,029 --> 00:41:07,759 be giant eels because it's not as 1052 00:41:13,900 --> 00:41:10,039 exciting and I think this is a problem 1053 00:41:16,509 --> 00:41:13,910 that ufology has ufology has lost its 1054 00:41:19,420 --> 00:41:16,519 ability to have an inquiring mind it has 1055 00:41:22,089 --> 00:41:19,430 a closed mind when it should have an 1056 00:41:23,950 --> 00:41:22,099 open mind and when belief systems and 1057 00:41:25,630 --> 00:41:23,960 emotion come into the subject where we 1058 00:41:27,700 --> 00:41:25,640 really don't know what's going on it's 1059 00:41:29,769 --> 00:41:27,710 done for and unfortunates what's 1060 00:41:33,069 --> 00:41:29,779 happened with ufology there it's like 1061 00:41:35,979 --> 00:41:33,079 it's been hijacked by a theory that is 1062 00:41:38,380 --> 00:41:35,989 being presented as a fact you know this 1063 00:41:40,180 --> 00:41:38,390 takes us back to the early days one of 1064 00:41:42,359 --> 00:41:40,190 the first books I read about UFOs was 1065 00:41:44,410 --> 00:41:42,369 flying saucers from outer space 1066 00:41:45,920 --> 00:41:44,420 prejudging it right there from major 1067 00:41:47,270 --> 00:41:45,930 Donald Kehoe 1068 00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:47,280 if you look online you can get the book 1069 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:48,930 downloaded it's no longer in the 1070 00:41:56,180 --> 00:41:52,290 copyright that is the entire ETH theory 1071 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:56,190 in one book written in the 1950s and I 1072 00:41:59,750 --> 00:41:57,930 think the thing that concerned me when I 1073 00:42:01,609 --> 00:41:59,760 started talking with Allen Greenfield 1074 00:42:04,130 --> 00:42:01,619 about these things and certainly you 1075 00:42:06,740 --> 00:42:04,140 guys consider it in max considering is 1076 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:06,750 the fact that the thought about what 1077 00:42:12,020 --> 00:42:09,450 UFOs might be it all stopped in the 1078 00:42:19,460 --> 00:42:12,030 1950s we haven't gone anywhere and 1079 00:42:22,099 --> 00:42:19,470 that's really unfortunate fate magazine 1080 00:42:24,079 --> 00:42:22,109 provides true reports of the strange and 1081 00:42:26,510 --> 00:42:24,089 unknown keep up with the latest on 1082 00:42:29,540 --> 00:42:26,520 angels and miracles psychic phenomena 1083 00:42:30,079 --> 00:42:29,550 ghosts UFOs life after death and much 1084 00:42:32,510 --> 00:42:30,089 much more 1085 00:42:35,150 --> 00:42:32,520 to receive your free issue of faith 1086 00:42:39,079 --> 00:42:35,160 magazine call now at one eight hundred 1087 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:39,089 seven two eight two seven three zero or 1088 00:42:45,790 --> 00:42:43,290 visit their website at WWF at mad calm 1089 00:42:54,380 --> 00:42:45,800 that's one eight hundred seven two eight 1090 00:42:57,049 --> 00:42:54,390 twenty seven thirty or WWF AEMA g.com 1091 00:43:00,580 --> 00:42:57,059 what are you waiting for your fate 1092 00:43:04,900 --> 00:43:02,500 this is Leslie Kane and I'm with the 1093 00:43:08,260 --> 00:43:04,910 Coalition for freedom of information and 1094 00:43:10,210 --> 00:43:08,270 you are listening to the paragraph our 1095 00:43:12,340 --> 00:43:10,220 co-host is Paul Campbell we have Greg 1096 00:43:13,930 --> 00:43:12,350 Bishop Nicholas Redfern we're talking 1097 00:43:16,440 --> 00:43:13,940 about a book called the crypto 1098 00:43:19,390 --> 00:43:16,450 terrestrials and it's published by 1099 00:43:21,910 --> 00:43:19,400 anomalous books it's available on Amazon 1100 00:43:25,210 --> 00:43:21,920 and if you click on the link at the para 1101 00:43:26,830 --> 00:43:25,220 cast com website you can place your 1102 00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:26,840 order for a copy I think they're 1103 00:43:30,550 --> 00:43:28,970 discounting it for 10 bucks now if you 1104 00:43:32,830 --> 00:43:30,560 think about 2 cups of coffee at 1105 00:43:35,050 --> 00:43:32,840 Starbucks or a copy of the crypto to 1106 00:43:36,460 --> 00:43:35,060 rest fuels you know where I stand Paul 1107 00:43:37,900 --> 00:43:36,470 you want to pick up yeah I was just 1108 00:43:40,960 --> 00:43:37,910 gonna say the interesting thing about 1109 00:43:42,970 --> 00:43:40,970 the extra-terrestrial hypothesis is that 1110 00:43:45,190 --> 00:43:42,980 in the 1950s it would have seemed like 1111 00:43:47,950 --> 00:43:45,200 cutting-edge science to people like 1112 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:47,960 Keough whereas I think what's happened 1113 00:43:52,090 --> 00:43:50,330 is and as Nick said Mack doesn't rule 1114 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:52,100 out the X or didn't rule out story the 1115 00:43:56,980 --> 00:43:53,930 extra-terrestrial hypothesis I certainly 1116 00:43:59,950 --> 00:43:56,990 don't I we all just put the emphasis on 1117 00:44:01,090 --> 00:43:59,960 a hypothesis not on extraterrestrial as 1118 00:44:03,340 --> 00:44:01,100 opposed to what I call the 1119 00:44:05,530 --> 00:44:03,350 extra-terrestrial factors who view it as 1120 00:44:06,580 --> 00:44:05,540 a fact but Greg maybe I'll throw this 1121 00:44:08,170 --> 00:44:06,590 one to you what do you think of the idea 1122 00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:08,180 that maybe science has actually outrun 1123 00:44:12,460 --> 00:44:10,670 the extra-terrestrial hypothesis that 1124 00:44:14,920 --> 00:44:12,470 some of the things that people like 1125 00:44:16,900 --> 00:44:14,930 missio Kaku are talking about the idea 1126 00:44:19,240 --> 00:44:16,910 that Vallet first came up with and Keele 1127 00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:19,250 and those people of a super spectrum of 1128 00:44:23,020 --> 00:44:20,570 ultra terrestrials for parallel 1129 00:44:25,270 --> 00:44:23,030 dimensions and universes and the ETH 1130 00:44:26,290 --> 00:44:25,280 people back in the 1960s and 70s we're 1131 00:44:28,030 --> 00:44:26,300 saying well that's crazy 1132 00:44:30,010 --> 00:44:28,040 I mean we're talking we need nuts and 1133 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:30,020 bolts spaceship that spaceships that's 1134 00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:32,450 what we science can understand that do 1135 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:33,770 you think that maybe science is now 1136 00:44:38,500 --> 00:44:35,690 saying well actually that's kind of 1137 00:44:40,780 --> 00:44:38,510 quaint but you know there's there's far 1138 00:44:42,820 --> 00:44:40,790 more esoteric things out there that seem 1139 00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:42,830 to make more sense to us now so maybe 1140 00:44:46,210 --> 00:44:43,850 you know the the extra-terrestrial 1141 00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:46,220 hypothesis is the quaint little relic of 1142 00:44:50,920 --> 00:44:48,530 our own perceptions in the 1950s it 1143 00:44:52,900 --> 00:44:50,930 doesn't match the scientific advances 1144 00:44:56,340 --> 00:44:52,910 that we've made today Greg take that one 1145 00:44:58,990 --> 00:44:56,350 well I have complained in the past that 1146 00:45:01,000 --> 00:44:59,000 ufology much of it is stuck in 19th 1147 00:45:03,760 --> 00:45:01,010 century science in high school science 1148 00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:03,770 and nobody's really read up on some of 1149 00:45:09,790 --> 00:45:06,170 the newer theories about the physical 1150 00:45:12,090 --> 00:45:09,800 universe possibilities of what we term 1151 00:45:13,370 --> 00:45:12,100 for convenience say other dimensions 1152 00:45:15,259 --> 00:45:13,380 theoretically 1153 00:45:17,329 --> 00:45:15,269 if you look at super string theory and 1154 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:17,339 other things related to it there is the 1155 00:45:23,539 --> 00:45:20,249 possibility that but it's hard to 1156 00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:23,549 explain every every possibility exists 1157 00:45:29,390 --> 00:45:25,890 always and always has and if you're able 1158 00:45:31,489 --> 00:45:29,400 to navigate navigate that ocean not to 1159 00:45:33,140 --> 00:45:31,499 push any anything into the last thing we 1160 00:45:35,479 --> 00:45:33,150 were talking about but if you're able to 1161 00:45:37,190 --> 00:45:35,489 navigate that ocean as a species those 1162 00:45:39,019 --> 00:45:37,200 different dimensions if you want to call 1163 00:45:40,130 --> 00:45:39,029 them that it comes the point where 1164 00:45:42,759 --> 00:45:40,140 anything that's possible and you can 1165 00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:42,769 people beings who haven't been able to 1166 00:45:49,910 --> 00:45:47,130 navigate that ocean look at you as as 1167 00:45:53,150 --> 00:45:49,920 almost as gods and Mac does discuss this 1168 00:45:56,660 --> 00:45:53,160 a lot in the book the fact that we may 1169 00:45:59,690 --> 00:45:56,670 be tuned to one sort of spectrum I guess 1170 00:46:03,200 --> 00:45:59,700 our spectrum that we live and work and 1171 00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:03,210 breed and die in but the UFO the UFO 1172 00:46:08,890 --> 00:46:05,460 knots from one of a better term might 1173 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:08,900 have been able some time long ago to 1174 00:46:13,579 --> 00:46:11,729 appear and disappear in different times 1175 00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:13,589 in different situations and different 1176 00:46:19,130 --> 00:46:16,410 possibilities to and will which would go 1177 00:46:21,469 --> 00:46:19,140 towards explaining some of the witness 1178 00:46:23,479 --> 00:46:21,479 testimony and if you stick to the ETH 1179 00:46:25,489 --> 00:46:23,489 that's the other thing about max look it 1180 00:46:27,049 --> 00:46:25,499 doesn't you know he offers a lot of 1181 00:46:30,229 --> 00:46:27,059 alternatives to people a lot of 1182 00:46:31,999 --> 00:46:30,239 alternatives to the it's you know it's 1183 00:46:34,099 --> 00:46:32,009 aliens from other planets so it's not 1184 00:46:35,779 --> 00:46:34,109 aliens from other planets so it's it's 1185 00:46:38,690 --> 00:46:35,789 crap there's there's a belief system 1186 00:46:40,069 --> 00:46:38,700 ongoing on both sides of that and like 1187 00:46:41,690 --> 00:46:40,079 Nick said when you get caught in a 1188 00:46:44,690 --> 00:46:41,700 belief system even if you think it's 1189 00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:44,700 backed up by science you're lost people 1190 00:46:48,859 --> 00:46:46,650 that truly want to know what's going on 1191 00:46:50,779 --> 00:46:48,869 and truly think that the mystery is at 1192 00:46:53,029 --> 00:46:50,789 least partially understandable if not 1193 00:46:54,979 --> 00:46:53,039 solvable have to start looking in other 1194 00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:54,989 places whether it means they're gonna 1195 00:47:00,140 --> 00:46:57,450 you know be invited to speak at UFO 1196 00:47:02,539 --> 00:47:00,150 conferences or put on TV and all that is 1197 00:47:04,459 --> 00:47:02,549 beside the point and unfortunately for a 1198 00:47:06,890 --> 00:47:04,469 lot of people in the UFO I guess the 1199 00:47:08,870 --> 00:47:06,900 luminaries I guess of the UFO arena 1200 00:47:10,479 --> 00:47:08,880 whether they know it or not I think if 1201 00:47:13,219 --> 00:47:10,489 that becomes part of their motivation 1202 00:47:15,049 --> 00:47:13,229 Mac even mentions it in the book but 1203 00:47:16,670 --> 00:47:15,059 what do you say well well as luminaries 1204 00:47:19,400 --> 00:47:16,680 Maya noisily claimed otherwise ethology 1205 00:47:19,700 --> 00:47:19,410 collectively wants to be marginal they 1206 00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:19,710 wanted 1207 00:47:23,210 --> 00:47:21,359 marginal because there at the top there 1208 00:47:24,950 --> 00:47:23,220 are the big fish in the small pond and 1209 00:47:26,120 --> 00:47:24,960 if that pond disappears they don't they 1210 00:47:26,599 --> 00:47:26,130 don't even have a pond to live in 1211 00:47:28,700 --> 00:47:26,609 anymore 1212 00:47:30,740 --> 00:47:28,710 they can't have like I can't get paid to 1213 00:47:32,510 --> 00:47:30,750 write books it gets difficult let me try 1214 00:47:34,339 --> 00:47:32,520 totally left-field question is that's 1215 00:47:37,339 --> 00:47:34,349 why I'm here because I'm a lefty by the 1216 00:47:40,400 --> 00:47:37,349 way so here's a left-field question Carl 1217 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:40,410 Jung writes the book by UFOs being part 1218 00:47:45,770 --> 00:47:42,690 of our collective unconscious so maybe 1219 00:47:48,079 --> 00:47:45,780 there are an external UFOs but Mother 1220 00:47:50,630 --> 00:47:48,089 Earth is communicating to us somehow 1221 00:47:52,460 --> 00:47:50,640 through our collective unconscious what 1222 00:47:54,410 --> 00:47:52,470 do you think guys well I actually think 1223 00:47:56,570 --> 00:47:54,420 as people some people may not still am i 1224 00:47:58,730 --> 00:47:56,580 writing you know i get into some weird 1225 00:48:00,530 --> 00:47:58,740 areas and i mean this is one of the 1226 00:48:02,030 --> 00:48:00,540 things i found nothing to do with 1227 00:48:03,980 --> 00:48:02,040 cryptids rest rules but you know 1228 00:48:05,990 --> 00:48:03,990 originally coming from england every 1229 00:48:07,970 --> 00:48:06,000 time i used to go down to wheelchair the 1230 00:48:10,010 --> 00:48:07,980 one can see more than any other in 1231 00:48:11,420 --> 00:48:10,020 england where you know the crop circles 1232 00:48:12,890 --> 00:48:11,430 would appear every year you know there 1233 00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:12,900 are all sorts of theories about crop 1234 00:48:17,329 --> 00:48:14,970 circles as well with UFOs but one of the 1235 00:48:19,190 --> 00:48:17,339 more prevalent ones is the idea that 1236 00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:19,200 there's some sort of the earth you know 1237 00:48:23,540 --> 00:48:21,330 but the whole Gaia theory of the earth 1238 00:48:26,060 --> 00:48:23,550 and the notion that crop circles are 1239 00:48:27,980 --> 00:48:26,070 some sort of almost like a stigmata on 1240 00:48:30,620 --> 00:48:27,990 the surface of the planet you know it's 1241 00:48:33,950 --> 00:48:30,630 a wild theory but you know when you're 1242 00:48:35,630 --> 00:48:33,960 faced with that or aliens beaming you 1243 00:48:38,380 --> 00:48:35,640 know some sort of sound waves down to 1244 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:38,390 the ground or guys with planks or 1245 00:48:42,829 --> 00:48:40,770 witches and wizards you know doing a 1246 00:48:45,079 --> 00:48:42,839 cult rituals in the circles which 1247 00:48:47,660 --> 00:48:45,089 actually does go on anything any theory 1248 00:48:49,940 --> 00:48:47,670 is fair game so you know I think all 1249 00:48:51,800 --> 00:48:49,950 theories have their place and I think we 1250 00:48:54,109 --> 00:48:51,810 should address all theories but it's 1251 00:48:56,900 --> 00:48:54,119 like Greg said me for civil I said 1252 00:48:59,630 --> 00:48:56,910 earlier when addressing a theory becomes 1253 00:49:01,250 --> 00:48:59,640 reinforcing a belief system you might as 1254 00:49:04,010 --> 00:49:01,260 well just give up and go home and watch 1255 00:49:06,140 --> 00:49:04,020 reality TV or something because when you 1256 00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:06,150 when you're in that belief system mode 1257 00:49:10,010 --> 00:49:08,400 nothing else matters and nothing can be 1258 00:49:11,510 --> 00:49:10,020 done you know this be done to get you 1259 00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:11,520 out of it and that's one of the things 1260 00:49:16,609 --> 00:49:14,010 that I find most interesting until you 1261 00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:16,619 go back to the religious metaphor when 1262 00:49:20,930 --> 00:49:19,170 and I'll just take Christianity as an 1263 00:49:22,760 --> 00:49:20,940 example although this generally works 1264 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:22,770 for every religion the difference 1265 00:49:28,400 --> 00:49:25,410 between sort of faith which i think is 1266 00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:28,410 rooted in a genuine desire to try and 1267 00:49:32,960 --> 00:49:31,050 find out about the other whatever the 1268 00:49:34,790 --> 00:49:32,970 other is so you you have that 1269 00:49:37,550 --> 00:49:34,800 the early years of Christianity all 1270 00:49:39,080 --> 00:49:37,560 sorts of sex all sorts of conversations 1271 00:49:40,550 --> 00:49:39,090 going back and forth I mean early 1272 00:49:42,500 --> 00:49:40,560 Christianity was basically one 1273 00:49:43,910 --> 00:49:42,510 long-running thought experiment by 1274 00:49:46,160 --> 00:49:43,920 people who were trying to evade being 1275 00:49:49,220 --> 00:49:46,170 crucified by the Romans and then 1276 00:49:51,260 --> 00:49:49,230 eventually as with every revolution in 1277 00:49:53,780 --> 00:49:51,270 Christianity was a revolution it gets 1278 00:49:57,050 --> 00:49:53,790 codified it gets calcified some would 1279 00:49:59,390 --> 00:49:57,060 say into a formal dogma that designed 1280 00:50:00,920 --> 00:49:59,400 primarily for social control here's the 1281 00:50:02,720 --> 00:50:00,930 crazy thing that I always find amusing 1282 00:50:04,609 --> 00:50:02,730 is that there's a lot of people who 1283 00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:04,619 write on the internet about the UFO 1284 00:50:09,320 --> 00:50:06,720 phenomenon and the one thing that seems 1285 00:50:10,790 --> 00:50:09,330 to tick them off the most is the idea 1286 00:50:13,700 --> 00:50:10,800 that there would be some central body 1287 00:50:15,140 --> 00:50:13,710 that would police here the Salado we 1288 00:50:17,660 --> 00:50:15,150 can't have a central body that would 1289 00:50:19,010 --> 00:50:17,670 police the ufology well I have news for 1290 00:50:21,560 --> 00:50:19,020 you folks you already have it the 1291 00:50:23,870 --> 00:50:21,570 advocates of the extra trespasses 1292 00:50:26,240 --> 00:50:23,880 they're the de-facto Cardinals of the 1293 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:26,250 ETH Church as far as I'm concerned and 1294 00:50:30,050 --> 00:50:28,530 so when we talk about religion I wrote 1295 00:50:31,910 --> 00:50:30,060 in my view of the book that Mac was a 1296 00:50:33,410 --> 00:50:31,920 revolutionary and I compared him to 1297 00:50:35,150 --> 00:50:33,420 somebody that your listeners probably 1298 00:50:38,060 --> 00:50:35,160 won't know about but a guy named Henry 1299 00:50:40,370 --> 00:50:38,070 Allen who was a an evangelical in Nova 1300 00:50:42,470 --> 00:50:40,380 Scotia the Maritimes in the late 18th 1301 00:50:43,790 --> 00:50:42,480 century and what Allan did and it's 1302 00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:43,800 worth considering for saying what Allan 1303 00:50:48,200 --> 00:50:45,440 did he was faced with a very rigid 1304 00:50:50,690 --> 00:50:48,210 formalized Congregational Church that 1305 00:50:53,060 --> 00:50:50,700 was very Calvinist in its outlook and he 1306 00:50:54,980 --> 00:50:53,070 said look I stressed the personal 1307 00:50:57,170 --> 00:50:54,990 experience with God and he went around 1308 00:50:58,670 --> 00:50:57,180 the colonies and this leads into my next 1309 00:51:00,020 --> 00:50:58,680 point so it'll make sense went around 1310 00:51:02,180 --> 00:51:00,030 the colonies and they called him a new 1311 00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:02,190 light because all he said none of these 1312 00:51:05,300 --> 00:51:03,690 things that you've created these these 1313 00:51:06,470 --> 00:51:05,310 things about baptism and stuff none of 1314 00:51:08,450 --> 00:51:06,480 that matters all that matters is a 1315 00:51:11,329 --> 00:51:08,460 personal experience with God it was a 1316 00:51:13,520 --> 00:51:11,339 revolutionary kind of thing and then he 1317 00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:13,530 died he died very young as Mac did 1318 00:51:18,829 --> 00:51:17,010 within 20 years his new light sort of 1319 00:51:20,750 --> 00:51:18,839 philosophy had been turned into the 1320 00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:20,760 Baptist Church you know the the 1321 00:51:25,130 --> 00:51:23,130 mainstream religions had co-opted it and 1322 00:51:26,660 --> 00:51:25,140 taken out all of the radical stuff and 1323 00:51:28,970 --> 00:51:26,670 just focused in on the things that they 1324 00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:28,980 could use and my question to you Greg 1325 00:51:34,940 --> 00:51:31,530 and Nick after that long-winded somewhat 1326 00:51:37,250 --> 00:51:34,950 relevant thing is do you think that the 1327 00:51:38,810 --> 00:51:37,260 same thing could happen to max idea 1328 00:51:40,400 --> 00:51:38,820 because I've already seen on the 1329 00:51:42,050 --> 00:51:40,410 internet people talking about the crypto 1330 00:51:43,490 --> 00:51:42,060 terrestrial hypothesis and saying well 1331 00:51:44,059 --> 00:51:43,500 of course this is he's on it this is 1332 00:51:46,189 --> 00:51:44,069 absurd 1333 00:51:47,509 --> 00:51:46,199 Liat this is the right answer and I 1334 00:51:49,249 --> 00:51:47,519 think Mac if he was here would be 1335 00:51:50,599 --> 00:51:49,259 horrified that anybody would say that he 1336 00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:50,609 had come up with the right answer 1337 00:51:54,890 --> 00:51:52,650 Gregg of course he would be horrified he 1338 00:51:57,170 --> 00:51:54,900 was he said many times in the book that 1339 00:51:59,660 --> 00:51:57,180 I'm playing with ideas here this is a 1340 00:52:02,059 --> 00:51:59,670 thought experiment however I did tell 1341 00:52:03,529 --> 00:52:02,069 him over the years as we spoke and over 1342 00:52:05,779 --> 00:52:03,539 the months leading up to the release of 1343 00:52:09,199 --> 00:52:05,789 the book and he would just not accept it 1344 00:52:10,849 --> 00:52:09,209 he was too modest I said you know what I 1345 00:52:13,670 --> 00:52:10,859 think is gonna happen with this book is 1346 00:52:15,559 --> 00:52:13,680 that a few people will notice it there 1347 00:52:18,019 --> 00:52:15,569 will be some talk about it it will cause 1348 00:52:21,049 --> 00:52:18,029 a stir for a few months and then in the 1349 00:52:23,900 --> 00:52:21,059 months and the years and I suppose the 1350 00:52:26,269 --> 00:52:23,910 decades after it people coming into the 1351 00:52:28,009 --> 00:52:26,279 field will read it and say you know why 1352 00:52:29,329 --> 00:52:28,019 hasn't anybody said this before this is 1353 00:52:31,969 --> 00:52:29,339 incredible why don't more people know 1354 00:52:34,189 --> 00:52:31,979 about this and that you know that may 1355 00:52:36,829 --> 00:52:34,199 start some sort of turnover and what 1356 00:52:39,109 --> 00:52:36,839 people do when they get into the UFO 1357 00:52:41,749 --> 00:52:39,119 field and what they concentrate on what 1358 00:52:43,759 --> 00:52:41,759 kind of questions they ask what max 1359 00:52:45,319 --> 00:52:43,769 doing with the book is is asking 1360 00:52:48,109 --> 00:52:45,329 questions that haven't been asked before 1361 00:52:50,689 --> 00:52:48,119 and offering some cautious tenuous 1362 00:52:55,009 --> 00:52:50,699 explanations hoping that other people 1363 00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:55,019 will one read and to expand on his ideas 1364 00:52:58,670 --> 00:52:57,119 I think he was kind of he was kind of 1365 00:53:00,859 --> 00:52:58,680 saying hey everybody this stuff is 1366 00:53:03,019 --> 00:53:00,869 around it's been around for a while 1367 00:53:04,430 --> 00:53:03,029 these ideas that he has why don't you 1368 00:53:06,890 --> 00:53:04,440 take a look at it and run with it 1369 00:53:09,199 --> 00:53:06,900 and I think that's what the contribution 1370 00:53:12,049 --> 00:53:09,209 of the book is what should I sometimes 1371 00:53:15,259 --> 00:53:12,059 see in the UFO field and is that we did 1372 00:53:17,839 --> 00:53:15,269 discuss all alternative theories back in 1373 00:53:19,969 --> 00:53:17,849 the 60s and 70s yeah and then they died 1374 00:53:21,739 --> 00:53:19,979 off and then suddenly we're no longer 1375 00:53:23,870 --> 00:53:21,749 talking about the alternative theories 1376 00:53:26,180 --> 00:53:23,880 if you wake up one day and it's back to 1377 00:53:28,519 --> 00:53:26,190 ETH and you think about the cycles here 1378 00:53:30,410 --> 00:53:28,529 and the unfortunate thing here is we 1379 00:53:32,299 --> 00:53:30,420 have this great work here we have 1380 00:53:34,039 --> 00:53:32,309 someone who unfortunately is no longer 1381 00:53:37,039 --> 00:53:34,049 around to expand it and we hope that 1382 00:53:39,109 --> 00:53:37,049 people like you will be able to expand 1383 00:53:41,269 --> 00:53:39,119 these ideas and come up with more 1384 00:53:43,579 --> 00:53:41,279 theories more suggestions of what to 1385 00:53:45,259 --> 00:53:43,589 investigate and how but maybe 20 years 1386 00:53:46,969 --> 00:53:45,269 from now they'll just be reading Donald 1387 00:53:48,140 --> 00:53:46,979 Kehoe all over again and that will be 1388 00:53:49,090 --> 00:53:48,150 the way in the truth 1389 00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:49,100 god I hope 1390 00:53:54,400 --> 00:53:51,410 I mean that's I'm hoping that that's not 1391 00:53:55,900 --> 00:53:54,410 the case if you look at the these what 1392 00:53:57,910 --> 00:53:55,910 was the book Thomas to instructor 1393 00:53:59,620 --> 00:53:57,920 structure of scientific revolutions I 1394 00:54:01,960 --> 00:53:59,630 think at the at the end of his 1395 00:54:04,480 --> 00:54:01,970 conclusion was basically the people that 1396 00:54:06,430 --> 00:54:04,490 are pushing the old theories that don't 1397 00:54:08,830 --> 00:54:06,440 want to let go of them have to actually 1398 00:54:11,340 --> 00:54:08,840 essentially die off before new ideas can 1399 00:54:13,750 --> 00:54:11,350 come I'm hoping in my most optimistic 1400 00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:13,760 times that that's what will happen with 1401 00:54:16,420 --> 00:54:15,170 max book and other books that are 1402 00:54:19,990 --> 00:54:16,430 similar to it that people generally 1403 00:54:21,790 --> 00:54:20,000 ignore like Greg littles books or or Jim 1404 00:54:24,670 --> 00:54:21,800 Brandon is one book on the subject and 1405 00:54:27,580 --> 00:54:24,680 the rebirth of pan which would share a 1406 00:54:29,320 --> 00:54:27,590 lot of themes ideas theories with Max 1407 00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:29,330 you know what's ironic about that is 1408 00:54:34,390 --> 00:54:31,850 that Stan Friedman in almost all of his 1409 00:54:37,390 --> 00:54:34,400 lectures uses that longing to bolster 1410 00:54:39,130 --> 00:54:37,400 the extra-terrestrial hypothesis the 1411 00:54:40,930 --> 00:54:39,140 it's actually in my film Stanton T 1412 00:54:42,310 --> 00:54:40,940 Friedman is real I have him saying it to 1413 00:54:44,410 --> 00:54:42,320 somebody at a conference saying you know 1414 00:54:46,390 --> 00:54:44,420 it was Max Planck in order for 1415 00:54:48,250 --> 00:54:46,400 scientific progress to take place the 1416 00:54:51,100 --> 00:54:48,260 people that held the old ideas kind of 1417 00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:51,110 have to die off and in a weird sense of 1418 00:54:55,450 --> 00:54:53,570 irony and believe me I hope Stan lives 1419 00:54:58,510 --> 00:54:55,460 another 50 years in the robot body or 1420 00:55:01,420 --> 00:54:58,520 something but download him that's how it 1421 00:55:03,520 --> 00:55:01,430 works exactly do a virtual reality sort 1422 00:55:06,550 --> 00:55:03,530 of in the Catskills where his jokes will 1423 00:55:10,570 --> 00:55:06,560 make sense but you know that idea that 1424 00:55:12,130 --> 00:55:10,580 they have become the orthodoxy and in a 1425 00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:12,140 field to two things that strike me is 1426 00:55:15,400 --> 00:55:13,040 always funny one 1427 00:55:17,140 --> 00:55:15,410 it's the how can you have an orthodoxy 1428 00:55:19,210 --> 00:55:17,150 where you don't know the answer I mean 1429 00:55:21,220 --> 00:55:19,220 the UFO phenomenon is a mystery it's 1430 00:55:24,100 --> 00:55:21,230 weird it's fun you know what frankly 1431 00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:24,110 it's a little wacky sometimes too and I 1432 00:55:29,500 --> 00:55:25,970 think it's a very reductionist approach 1433 00:55:32,140 --> 00:55:29,510 that is very human of us - I think the 1434 00:55:34,270 --> 00:55:32,150 extra-terrestrial hypothesis ironically 1435 00:55:36,040 --> 00:55:34,280 is the most human hypothesis of all of 1436 00:55:38,050 --> 00:55:36,050 them because it's not really about what 1437 00:55:40,900 --> 00:55:38,060 the answer is it's about what we want 1438 00:55:43,300 --> 00:55:40,910 the answer is to be and and what we can 1439 00:55:44,830 --> 00:55:43,310 wrap our minds around and that's it 1440 00:55:46,060 --> 00:55:44,840 that's what most people can wrap their 1441 00:55:48,340 --> 00:55:46,070 minds around whereas you get a guy like 1442 00:55:50,440 --> 00:55:48,350 Mac who's flying out there he's going 1443 00:55:51,490 --> 00:55:50,450 out in the edges and I am Nick I'm gonna 1444 00:55:53,050 --> 00:55:51,500 throw this one to you I'm just gonna 1445 00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:53,060 read the last thing that he wrote in the 1446 00:55:57,550 --> 00:55:55,280 book before he has one thing about our 1447 00:55:58,780 --> 00:55:57,560 own future but he writes this if we're 1448 00:56:00,190 --> 00:55:58,790 dealing with the truly alien 1449 00:56:01,780 --> 00:56:00,200 intelligence there's 1450 00:56:04,510 --> 00:56:01,790 promised that its thinking will be 1451 00:56:06,550 --> 00:56:04,520 linear indeed its inherent weirdness 1452 00:56:08,829 --> 00:56:06,560 might serve as an appeal to an aspect of 1453 00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:08,839 the psyche we've allowed to atrophy it 1454 00:56:12,819 --> 00:56:10,640 might be trying to rouse us from our 1455 00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:12,829 stupor in which case it's tempting to 1456 00:56:18,130 --> 00:56:15,260 wonder if the supposed extraterrestrials 1457 00:56:21,370 --> 00:56:18,140 are literally us in some arcane sense 1458 00:56:23,319 --> 00:56:21,380 nick comment yeah i mean i think you 1459 00:56:25,599 --> 00:56:23,329 know that this this obviously looks into 1460 00:56:28,240 --> 00:56:25,609 a number of controversial areas but the 1461 00:56:30,670 --> 00:56:28,250 main thrust is that you know I think we 1462 00:56:32,380 --> 00:56:30,680 might not necessarily see these entities 1463 00:56:35,230 --> 00:56:32,390 for what they are and understand them 1464 00:56:37,240 --> 00:56:35,240 because we put our own blinkered notions 1465 00:56:40,420 --> 00:56:37,250 on them as you've sort of just alluded 1466 00:56:41,530 --> 00:56:40,430 to you know the idea that if aliens are 1467 00:56:43,210 --> 00:56:41,540 coming here you know they have a 1468 00:56:45,490 --> 00:56:43,220 hierarchy they're the cats in there are 1469 00:56:47,920 --> 00:56:45,500 left N and they have the radar guy the 1470 00:56:49,180 --> 00:56:47,930 guy who fires and missiles of the planet 1471 00:56:51,819 --> 00:56:49,190 that sort of thing you know what I mean 1472 00:56:54,010 --> 00:56:51,829 it's kind of like that's so simplistic 1473 00:56:55,900 --> 00:56:54,020 and almost sort of in line with the 1474 00:56:57,700 --> 00:56:55,910 contactee thinking of the fifties you 1475 00:56:59,890 --> 00:56:57,710 know somebody meets space commanders 1476 00:57:01,690 --> 00:56:59,900 acts and planet whatever and I 1477 00:57:03,970 --> 00:57:01,700 understand that for some people you know 1478 00:57:06,609 --> 00:57:03,980 the simplistic approach works and they 1479 00:57:09,460 --> 00:57:06,619 portray the phenomenon innocent in a way 1480 00:57:12,069 --> 00:57:09,470 that they can understand and relate to 1481 00:57:14,200 --> 00:57:12,079 but if this phenomenon is so truly weird 1482 00:57:15,970 --> 00:57:14,210 we don't even understand it but we don't 1483 00:57:19,089 --> 00:57:15,980 possibly even recognize it when we see 1484 00:57:21,190 --> 00:57:19,099 it for what it is then we're in big 1485 00:57:24,309 --> 00:57:21,200 trouble and you know the the whole idea 1486 00:57:26,349 --> 00:57:24,319 that the phenomenon isn't what it seems 1487 00:57:29,349 --> 00:57:26,359 what I don't understand is why so 1488 00:57:31,599 --> 00:57:29,359 threatening why is it people who support 1489 00:57:33,309 --> 00:57:31,609 the a th are so threatened by the idea 1490 00:57:36,339 --> 00:57:33,319 that there could be another theory 1491 00:57:38,530 --> 00:57:36,349 equally fantastic equally amazing if it 1492 00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:38,540 was proven but he just didn't mean that 1493 00:57:42,250 --> 00:57:39,890 aliens from another world weren't 1494 00:57:44,559 --> 00:57:42,260 visiting I truly don't understand why 1495 00:57:46,750 --> 00:57:44,569 that is a threat other than the fact 1496 00:57:49,150 --> 00:57:46,760 that he destroys their belief system but 1497 00:57:51,099 --> 00:57:49,160 why why should that be a threat even so 1498 00:57:53,200 --> 00:57:51,109 you know why can we not accept that 1499 00:57:54,849 --> 00:57:53,210 something's going on but hey you know it 1500 00:57:57,579 --> 00:57:54,859 doesn't involve long-haired aliens of 1501 00:57:59,859 --> 00:57:57,589 venus or little black eyed guys and say 1502 00:58:01,329 --> 00:57:59,869 to Reticuli you know the idea that there 1503 00:58:03,069 --> 00:58:01,339 could be an impoverished society 1504 00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:03,079 published society hiding promised for 1505 00:58:07,450 --> 00:58:05,780 5,000 years if that was proven you know 1506 00:58:09,010 --> 00:58:07,460 hiding out in the jungles of South 1507 00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:09,020 America or somewhere you know with their 1508 00:58:12,930 --> 00:58:11,690 last 30 crafts as they died from some 1509 00:58:16,380 --> 00:58:12,940 sort of weird prison 1510 00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:16,390 area type illnesses you know that would 1511 00:58:19,170 --> 00:58:17,290 be amazing 1512 00:58:20,400 --> 00:58:19,180 and we would have solved the UFO mystery 1513 00:58:22,530 --> 00:58:20,410 and we should be congratulating 1514 00:58:25,559 --> 00:58:22,540 ourselves but you can have thousands of 1515 00:58:27,270 --> 00:58:25,569 people sulking purely because it doesn't 1516 00:58:31,380 --> 00:58:27,280 appalled the a th and you know it's 1517 00:58:33,329 --> 00:58:31,390 sometimes like is it worth it I think 1518 00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:33,339 you know it's such a marginal Mack 1519 00:58:37,650 --> 00:58:35,650 writes about how you follow G as as much 1520 00:58:39,420 --> 00:58:37,660 collectively Martin if they see th 1521 00:58:42,329 --> 00:58:39,430 aspects of it have collectively 1522 00:58:43,829 --> 00:58:42,339 marginalized themselves and he sort of 1523 00:58:46,710 --> 00:58:43,839 posits that they've done it on purpose 1524 00:58:48,990 --> 00:58:46,720 and to me it's kind of like Irene Mack 1525 00:58:51,390 --> 00:58:49,000 was a huge fan of REM and he and I would 1526 00:58:53,520 --> 00:58:51,400 talk about this I remember REM when they 1527 00:58:56,220 --> 00:58:53,530 were sort of this cool little college 1528 00:58:57,540 --> 00:58:56,230 van that nobody knew about unless you 1529 00:58:59,430 --> 00:58:57,550 happened to be in college and then they 1530 00:59:01,050 --> 00:58:59,440 hit the mainstream they broke I think it 1531 00:59:02,130 --> 00:59:01,060 was the one I love and then it's the end 1532 00:59:04,319 --> 00:59:02,140 of the world as we know it 1533 00:59:05,490 --> 00:59:04,329 and suddenly everybody was listening to 1534 00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:05,500 them the same thing happened with you 1535 00:59:10,140 --> 00:59:08,410 two and the weird thing is a lot of 1536 00:59:12,839 --> 00:59:10,150 their cool college fans said oh well 1537 00:59:14,640 --> 00:59:12,849 they they sold out and be you know they 1538 00:59:17,220 --> 00:59:14,650 were jealous that all of a sudden all 1539 00:59:19,200 --> 00:59:17,230 these people kind of wanted to listen to 1540 00:59:21,359 --> 00:59:19,210 I am in you too because REM and YouTube 1541 00:59:23,220 --> 00:59:21,369 were their bands and I sometimes 1542 00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:23,230 wondering I think Mack hints at this in 1543 00:59:27,839 --> 00:59:25,810 his book the ufology especially the 1544 00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:27,849 extra-terrestrial hypothesis people are 1545 00:59:30,569 --> 00:59:28,930 a lot like that too 1546 00:59:33,120 --> 00:59:30,579 you know they think they're in on the 1547 00:59:34,950 --> 00:59:33,130 secret the pearl is the religious people 1548 00:59:36,930 --> 00:59:34,960 would call it and I think they're 1549 00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:36,940 actually there's that an element of fear 1550 00:59:42,809 --> 00:59:41,050 that if everybody starts to be 1551 00:59:44,370 --> 00:59:42,819 interested in this to think about it to 1552 00:59:45,690 --> 00:59:44,380 talk about it they're not going to be 1553 00:59:47,520 --> 00:59:45,700 terribly relevant anymore 1554 00:59:49,500 --> 00:59:47,530 they'll have to give up their stuff 1555 00:59:51,450 --> 00:59:49,510 they'll have to get their feel I'll have 1556 00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:51,460 to go back to having a real life we'll 1557 00:59:54,809 --> 00:59:52,810 have more of a real life on the other 1558 00:59:57,450 --> 00:59:54,819 side of the power cast with guest host 1559 01:00:00,210 --> 00:59:57,460 Paul Kimball Nicholas Redfern Greg 1560 01:00:03,690 --> 01:00:00,220 Bishop we're talking about the crypto to 1561 01:00:09,870 --> 01:00:07,319 so Frank what do you think about UFOs I 1562 01:00:12,420 --> 01:00:09,880 saw one once I think they're out there 1563 01:00:13,620 --> 01:00:12,430 know what they are I don't know well I 1564 01:00:15,329 --> 01:00:13,630 believe that something is out there I 1565 01:00:17,460 --> 01:00:15,339 think that those things that you see in 1566 01:00:19,380 --> 01:00:17,470 the sky are only one small manifestation 1567 01:00:22,289 --> 01:00:19,390 of a whole wide range of phenomena that 1568 01:00:31,260 --> 01:00:22,299 people haven't properly named or have 1569 01:00:33,180 --> 01:00:31,270 attributed the wrong source to we want 1570 01:00:35,520 --> 01:00:33,190 to hear from you if you have a comment 1571 01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:35,530 or question about the pair cast send it 1572 01:00:41,400 --> 01:00:38,170 to news at the pair cast com 1573 01:00:43,349 --> 01:00:41,410 that's news at the pair cast calm and 1574 01:00:45,059 --> 01:00:43,359 don't forget to visit our forums where 1575 01:00:47,609 --> 01:00:45,069 you can talk to fellow listeners just go 1576 01:00:50,069 --> 01:00:47,619 to the pair cast calm and click on the 1577 01:00:58,480 --> 01:00:50,079 forum links that's the forum links at 1578 01:00:58,490 --> 01:01:04,870 welcome back to the parent house 1579 01:01:09,940 --> 01:01:07,599 the topic of discussion is a book by the 1580 01:01:13,900 --> 01:01:09,950 late Mac Tony's the crypto terrestrials 1581 01:01:15,549 --> 01:01:13,910 and by its title implicit that the UFO 1582 01:01:18,219 --> 01:01:15,559 knots whatever they are they come from 1583 01:01:21,370 --> 01:01:18,229 here not from out there but here may 1584 01:01:23,289 --> 01:01:21,380 entail loads of possibilities co-host is 1585 01:01:25,839 --> 01:01:23,299 Paul Kimball we have Nicolas Redfern 1586 01:01:28,299 --> 01:01:25,849 Greg Bishop they all knew Mac Tony's 1587 01:01:30,519 --> 01:01:28,309 very well understanding where he came 1588 01:01:32,349 --> 01:01:30,529 from now I'll give you the idea that 1589 01:01:34,299 --> 01:01:32,359 keeps occurring to me when I read 1590 01:01:36,849 --> 01:01:34,309 through this book and Mac gets into it 1591 01:01:39,430 --> 01:01:36,859 slightly Richard shaver Richard shaver 1592 01:01:41,829 --> 01:01:39,440 working as a welder starts writing these 1593 01:01:44,130 --> 01:01:41,839 stories which he sends to Ray Palmer 1594 01:01:47,529 --> 01:01:44,140 editor of amazing stories magazine 1595 01:01:50,829 --> 01:01:47,539 saying that he somehow is in touch with 1596 01:01:52,749 --> 01:01:50,839 those beings down there the DeRose the 1597 01:01:54,969 --> 01:01:52,759 tiros and there were a couple of things 1598 01:01:56,859 --> 01:01:54,979 about what Palmer and shaver said and I 1599 01:01:58,420 --> 01:01:56,869 knew them both by the way ok I'm not 1600 01:01:59,890 --> 01:01:58,430 boasting I just happen to know them you 1601 01:02:01,390 --> 01:01:59,900 know I've been around forever and I 1602 01:02:01,989 --> 01:02:01,400 wrote the very first song maybe that's 1603 01:02:03,940 --> 01:02:01,999 part of it 1604 01:02:05,829 --> 01:02:03,950 but they were saying before there were 1605 01:02:07,779 --> 01:02:05,839 flying saucers or we use the term flying 1606 01:02:09,430 --> 01:02:07,789 saucers Ray Palmer was writing about 1607 01:02:12,009 --> 01:02:09,440 them in the shaper stories that he 1608 01:02:15,370 --> 01:02:12,019 edited and rewrote and then Palmer said 1609 01:02:18,579 --> 01:02:15,380 flying saucers are here to make us think 1610 01:02:20,499 --> 01:02:18,589 so guys what are flying saucers here to 1611 01:02:22,900 --> 01:02:20,509 make us think about who wants to pick up 1612 01:02:25,599 --> 01:02:22,910 on that I'll do it first yeah I played 1613 01:02:28,630 --> 01:02:25,609 with this idea for a long time I think 1614 01:02:31,569 --> 01:02:28,640 that the UFO phenomenon is it seems 1615 01:02:33,700 --> 01:02:31,579 always tantalizingly just ahead of what 1616 01:02:36,880 --> 01:02:33,710 we can think of or what we can believe 1617 01:02:39,029 --> 01:02:36,890 so we put everything that we think on it 1618 01:02:42,940 --> 01:02:39,039 and not as none of it fits perfectly so 1619 01:02:45,969 --> 01:02:42,950 other people have said that's what it's 1620 01:02:49,660 --> 01:02:45,979 doing basically is showing us something 1621 01:02:52,120 --> 01:02:49,670 that doesn't make any sense as you know 1622 01:02:54,489 --> 01:02:52,130 as we apply our our ideas of science and 1623 01:02:56,259 --> 01:02:54,499 reality and kind of trying to pull us 1624 01:02:58,509 --> 01:02:56,269 into the future you know maybe it's us 1625 01:03:01,690 --> 01:02:58,519 in some way trying to get ourselves to 1626 01:03:03,279 --> 01:03:01,700 evolve and that idea is I'm sure gene 1627 01:03:06,099 --> 01:03:03,289 knows that idea has been around for 1628 01:03:09,489 --> 01:03:06,109 quite a quite a while yeah I even heard 1629 01:03:11,200 --> 01:03:09,499 but Hawk and say that UFO phenomenon is 1630 01:03:13,479 --> 01:03:11,210 pulling us kicking and screaming into 1631 01:03:15,250 --> 01:03:13,489 the next year of of science although I 1632 01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:15,260 don't know if he applies that 1633 01:03:21,040 --> 01:03:18,050 so yeah it's it's it's there it's 1634 01:03:23,140 --> 01:03:21,050 undeniable and you know and to deny it 1635 01:03:26,130 --> 01:03:23,150 but as some people do then say that it's 1636 01:03:28,630 --> 01:03:26,140 all hallucinations or whatever is is 1637 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:28,640 intellectually dishonest 1638 01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:31,490 you know the cripton terrestrials is 1639 01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:34,490 trying to be absolutely honest in the 1640 01:03:38,650 --> 01:03:36,170 way that mac looked at the problem and 1641 01:03:40,630 --> 01:03:38,660 the suggestions he's making and he gets 1642 01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:40,640 into stuff that doesn't most people 1643 01:03:44,500 --> 01:03:42,170 wouldn't look at and say that's 1644 01:03:47,170 --> 01:03:44,510 obviously related to the UFO phenomenon 1645 01:03:48,819 --> 01:03:47,180 for instance he writes this will be a 1646 01:03:50,890 --> 01:03:48,829 shorter quote don't worry your rights 1647 01:03:53,560 --> 01:03:50,900 given the vast number of reported out of 1648 01:03:55,089 --> 01:03:53,570 body and near-death experiences not two 1649 01:03:57,220 --> 01:03:55,099 things that you often hear talked about 1650 01:03:59,589 --> 01:03:57,230 it your average UFO conference even 1651 01:04:01,120 --> 01:03:59,599 right that part I did he writes I find 1652 01:04:03,130 --> 01:04:01,130 it difficult to reject the pop the 1653 01:04:04,900 --> 01:04:03,140 prospect of non-local consciousness 1654 01:04:06,790 --> 01:04:04,910 perhaps the sufficiently advanced 1655 01:04:09,550 --> 01:04:06,800 technology can manipulate the quote 1656 01:04:11,290 --> 01:04:09,560 quote soul as easily as we spliced genes 1657 01:04:13,870 --> 01:04:11,300 or mixed chemicals and test tubes 1658 01:04:15,790 --> 01:04:13,880 if so encounters with extraterrestrials 1659 01:04:17,819 --> 01:04:15,800 may help provide a working knowledge of 1660 01:04:19,839 --> 01:04:17,829 how to modify and transfer consciousness 1661 01:04:21,819 --> 01:04:19,849 abilities that seem remote to the 1662 01:04:23,829 --> 01:04:21,829 current terrestrial state of the art but 1663 01:04:26,079 --> 01:04:23,839 may prove invaluable in a future where 1664 01:04:28,000 --> 01:04:26,089 telepresence and virtual reality are 1665 01:04:29,770 --> 01:04:28,010 integral to communication and then he 1666 01:04:32,170 --> 01:04:29,780 writes already the capabilities of brain 1667 01:04:34,470 --> 01:04:32,180 machine interfaces are tantalisingly 1668 01:04:37,180 --> 01:04:34,480 like the popular perception of telepathy 1669 01:04:39,640 --> 01:04:37,190 often thought of and strictly paranormal 1670 01:04:41,950 --> 01:04:39,650 or even magical terms now Greg you've 1671 01:04:44,950 --> 01:04:41,960 read a lot of Dean Raiden's work and 1672 01:04:47,470 --> 01:04:44,960 you've interviewed Raiden as I recall is 1673 01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:47,480 there some sort of linkage perhaps 1674 01:04:50,559 --> 01:04:49,250 between something like what max writing 1675 01:04:52,960 --> 01:04:50,569 about there and getting into things like 1676 01:04:55,599 --> 01:04:52,970 telepathy and the work of guys like 1677 01:04:57,250 --> 01:04:55,609 Raiden in parapsychology who have delved 1678 01:04:59,740 --> 01:04:57,260 into that is there some sort of 1679 01:05:02,530 --> 01:04:59,750 possibility that Mac might have been on 1680 01:05:05,109 --> 01:05:02,540 to dare I say it a unified field theory 1681 01:05:06,940 --> 01:05:05,119 of the paranormal just wondering well I 1682 01:05:09,040 --> 01:05:06,950 think he's on to it because he lets his 1683 01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:09,050 mind go into areas that other people are 1684 01:05:13,599 --> 01:05:11,450 already did other people are kind of 1685 01:05:15,809 --> 01:05:13,609 scared to go yeah and there's there a 1686 01:05:17,920 --> 01:05:15,819 definite linkages because throughout 1687 01:05:19,870 --> 01:05:17,930 Raiden's research I interviewed him in 1688 01:05:22,270 --> 01:05:19,880 the mid 90s he's done a lot more since 1689 01:05:23,420 --> 01:05:22,280 then if people don't know Dean Radin is 1690 01:05:27,620 --> 01:05:23,430 a 1691 01:05:30,319 --> 01:05:27,630 scientific experiments on 1692 01:05:32,599 --> 01:05:30,329 mind-over-matter for probably 20 years 1693 01:05:34,010 --> 01:05:32,609 what came out of that interview I had 1694 01:05:37,789 --> 01:05:34,020 with him and what's relevant to this 1695 01:05:39,079 --> 01:05:37,799 discussion is he took basically what 1696 01:05:41,299 --> 01:05:39,089 should have taken a two-hour interview 1697 01:05:42,620 --> 01:05:41,309 he I interviewed him for five hours and 1698 01:05:44,210 --> 01:05:42,630 what I realized at the end of the 1699 01:05:47,859 --> 01:05:44,220 interview is he was trying to get me to 1700 01:05:50,240 --> 01:05:47,869 to get my mind around the concept that 1701 01:05:50,900 --> 01:05:50,250 basically to put in a few words time is 1702 01:05:53,660 --> 01:05:50,910 an illusion 1703 01:05:55,880 --> 01:05:53,670 and causality does not necessarily flow 1704 01:05:57,740 --> 01:05:55,890 in the way we think it is from you know 1705 01:05:59,750 --> 01:05:57,750 from cause to effect that sometimes the 1706 01:06:01,849 --> 01:05:59,760 effect comes first and he had found out 1707 01:06:03,920 --> 01:06:01,859 in some of his experiments and if you 1708 01:06:06,079 --> 01:06:03,930 get it sounds to me like somebody you 1709 01:06:09,109 --> 01:06:06,089 know a child just barely able to use a 1710 01:06:11,690 --> 01:06:09,119 tool figuring out what might have the 1711 01:06:14,029 --> 01:06:11,700 implications of what we see in the UFO 1712 01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:14,039 phenomena witness witness testimony 1713 01:06:19,010 --> 01:06:16,410 about things disappearing reappearing 1714 01:06:22,099 --> 01:06:19,020 and precognition of something that might 1715 01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:22,109 happen that's a hugely ignoring part of 1716 01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:24,930 the UFO phenomenon is is the effect on 1717 01:06:28,250 --> 01:06:26,880 the witness you know nobody ever asks 1718 01:06:30,289 --> 01:06:28,260 how does that make how did that make you 1719 01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:30,299 feel or follows up with them what 1720 01:06:33,980 --> 01:06:32,250 happened to you later things like that 1721 01:06:37,160 --> 01:06:33,990 that show that we're intimately 1722 01:06:39,109 --> 01:06:37,170 connected individually with this 1723 01:06:41,660 --> 01:06:39,119 phenomenon and the reactions to it are 1724 01:06:43,700 --> 01:06:41,670 almost as individual as people are and 1725 01:06:47,420 --> 01:06:43,710 Mac does discuss this in the book as 1726 01:06:49,910 --> 01:06:47,430 well and he does give voice to the idea 1727 01:06:52,670 --> 01:06:49,920 that we're probably as responsible for 1728 01:06:54,829 --> 01:06:52,680 what we think about the UFO phenomenon 1729 01:06:55,400 --> 01:06:54,839 as the phenomenon is itself if you know 1730 01:06:58,099 --> 01:06:55,410 what I'm saying 1731 01:07:00,470 --> 01:06:58,109 we are very complicit in the creation of 1732 01:07:02,029 --> 01:07:00,480 that idea or that reality Nick where you 1733 01:07:04,309 --> 01:07:02,039 think of all that well yeah I mean go 1734 01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:04,319 back and check out back to you know the 1735 01:07:10,250 --> 01:07:06,960 original kind of thrust is to you know 1736 01:07:11,900 --> 01:07:10,260 where Greg said the phenomenon seems to 1737 01:07:14,660 --> 01:07:11,910 be one step ahead of us all the time 1738 01:07:15,920 --> 01:07:14,670 and trying to teach us something I would 1739 01:07:18,260 --> 01:07:15,930 actually agree with that but I think 1740 01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:18,270 it's more of an either/or it's either 1741 01:07:24,109 --> 01:07:21,599 that or it's a phenomenon that is trying 1742 01:07:26,269 --> 01:07:24,119 to deceive us into believing you know 1743 01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:26,279 it's extraterrestrial or whatever I 1744 01:07:30,110 --> 01:07:29,490 think there is good evidence people you 1745 01:07:33,170 --> 01:07:30,120 know who 1746 01:07:36,650 --> 01:07:33,180 profound UFO encounters are radically 1747 01:07:38,870 --> 01:07:36,660 transformed in in a way that eerily and 1748 01:07:40,340 --> 01:07:38,880 chillingly parallels deep religious 1749 01:07:42,440 --> 01:07:40,350 experiences you know where somebody is 1750 01:07:44,690 --> 01:07:42,450 quite literally sent on a path that 1751 01:07:47,030 --> 01:07:44,700 alters their lives but of course the big 1752 01:07:49,850 --> 01:07:47,040 question is what's the motivation behind 1753 01:07:52,430 --> 01:07:49,860 me UFOs may be able maybe trying to 1754 01:07:54,800 --> 01:07:52,440 alter our way of thinking or you know 1755 01:07:57,140 --> 01:07:54,810 teachers etc but what's the motivation 1756 01:07:59,630 --> 01:07:57,150 is it for our benefits or is it for 1757 01:08:01,550 --> 01:07:59,640 their benefit and I think these are all 1758 01:08:03,410 --> 01:08:01,560 you know important issues I think I 1759 01:08:05,090 --> 01:08:03,420 think regulates an extremely valid point 1760 01:08:07,490 --> 01:08:05,100 that I hundred percent agree with that 1761 01:08:09,890 --> 01:08:07,500 the phenomenon deliberately stays one 1762 01:08:12,890 --> 01:08:09,900 step ahead of us to ensure that we 1763 01:08:14,900 --> 01:08:12,900 continue to look into it but you know 1764 01:08:18,500 --> 01:08:14,910 are we being kind of like you know be 1765 01:08:20,690 --> 01:08:18,510 the fish chasing the bait on the end of 1766 01:08:23,360 --> 01:08:20,700 the fishing rod you know or is it 1767 01:08:26,210 --> 01:08:23,370 somebody really kind of help us I don't 1768 01:08:29,090 --> 01:08:26,220 know I don't think we should race to 1769 01:08:30,980 --> 01:08:29,100 conclusions one way or the other and I 1770 01:08:32,450 --> 01:08:30,990 think that's that's what Matt did I mean 1771 01:08:34,130 --> 01:08:32,460 one thing I did want to mention this is 1772 01:08:35,450 --> 01:08:34,140 slightly going off track but you know 1773 01:08:37,550 --> 01:08:35,460 the one of the things a lot of people 1774 01:08:39,860 --> 01:08:37,560 forget or haven't noticed it's a 1775 01:08:42,440 --> 01:08:39,870 subtitle for max book which is a 1776 01:08:44,510 --> 01:08:42,450 meditation on indigenous humanoids in 1777 01:08:45,890 --> 01:08:44,520 the aliens amongst us you know the first 1778 01:08:48,829 --> 01:08:45,900 the most important thing of the first 1779 01:08:50,780 --> 01:08:48,839 two words a meditation you know it's a 1780 01:08:52,340 --> 01:08:50,790 theory you know all these people are 1781 01:08:54,349 --> 01:08:52,350 shouting and scream and that well this 1782 01:08:56,270 --> 01:08:54,359 just couldn't be they've missed the 1783 01:08:58,640 --> 01:08:56,280 point of what Mack was doing you know 1784 01:09:00,200 --> 01:08:58,650 he's asking questions instead of you 1785 01:09:03,170 --> 01:09:00,210 know with their lofty approach of 1786 01:09:05,240 --> 01:09:03,180 already having the answers ya know and 1787 01:09:07,730 --> 01:09:05,250 that's in my review of this book that's 1788 01:09:09,140 --> 01:09:07,740 why I called him a revolutionary and I 1789 01:09:11,240 --> 01:09:09,150 really you know what I really think 1790 01:09:12,680 --> 01:09:11,250 then people one or two people didn't 1791 01:09:14,390 --> 01:09:12,690 criticize me but they just pointed out 1792 01:09:15,559 --> 01:09:14,400 look he was one of your best friends of 1793 01:09:17,840 --> 01:09:15,569 course you'd write something nice like 1794 01:09:19,490 --> 01:09:17,850 that about him and as I pointed out to 1795 01:09:22,190 --> 01:09:19,500 them well Nick's one of my best friends 1796 01:09:24,200 --> 01:09:22,200 too but as Nick would recall my review 1797 01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:24,210 of Body Snatchers in the desert was you 1798 01:09:27,800 --> 01:09:26,370 know less than kind in some respects so 1799 01:09:28,820 --> 01:09:27,810 I don't think any of them I know I was 1800 01:09:30,440 --> 01:09:28,830 just gonna say I don't think any of us 1801 01:09:32,329 --> 01:09:30,450 have any problem if we had read the 1802 01:09:35,329 --> 01:09:32,339 crypto terrestrials and said wow this is 1803 01:09:37,579 --> 01:09:35,339 not sir backs up over the lunch we would 1804 01:09:39,860 --> 01:09:37,589 have said so when I look at it and I say 1805 01:09:42,160 --> 01:09:39,870 look this guy was having not that his 1806 01:09:44,169 --> 01:09:42,170 idea about the crypto terrestrials was 1807 01:09:46,660 --> 01:09:44,179 lúcia nari although I think that is it 1808 01:09:48,760 --> 01:09:46,670 within the context of the UFO field but 1809 01:09:52,240 --> 01:09:48,770 I also I just think his way of thinking 1810 01:09:54,550 --> 01:09:52,250 was revolutionary because he thinks or 1811 01:09:56,229 --> 01:09:54,560 he thought and so many people that look 1812 01:09:59,229 --> 01:09:56,239 into the UFO enigma 1813 01:10:02,890 --> 01:09:59,239 strangely enough don't seem to want to 1814 01:10:06,580 --> 01:10:02,900 think they just want to be fed an answer 1815 01:10:08,320 --> 01:10:06,590 and that is worrisome to me as somebody 1816 01:10:10,510 --> 01:10:08,330 who takes the UFO phenomenon seriously 1817 01:10:12,520 --> 01:10:10,520 sees it as a mystery that's worth 1818 01:10:14,890 --> 01:10:12,530 looking into that so many people who are 1819 01:10:16,510 --> 01:10:14,900 seem to be concerned about it don't view 1820 01:10:18,790 --> 01:10:16,520 it as a mystery they they just view it 1821 01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:18,800 as something received from heaven as it 1822 01:10:23,709 --> 01:10:22,010 were or the gospel and Mac that's why I 1823 01:10:25,540 --> 01:10:23,719 call him a revolutionary because he was 1824 01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:25,550 definitely as you guys do I mean 1825 01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:27,050 honestly Nick whether you agree with 1826 01:10:30,820 --> 01:10:28,610 Body Snatchers in the desert or not 1827 01:10:32,950 --> 01:10:30,830 we're Oswell is the orthodoxy of the 1828 01:10:34,780 --> 01:10:32,960 extra-terrestrial hypothesis so you know 1829 01:10:36,850 --> 01:10:34,790 things like that you should poke holes 1830 01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:36,860 in them test them because none of them 1831 01:10:42,459 --> 01:10:40,400 are proved yeah I mean I I just read you 1832 01:10:46,120 --> 01:10:42,469 know to talk about Body Snatchers but I 1833 01:10:47,950 --> 01:10:46,130 don't know if you need to go ahead later 1834 01:10:51,700 --> 01:10:47,960 oh I of course you'll pay the penalty 1835 01:10:54,580 --> 01:10:51,710 but you know how it goes I mean I don't 1836 01:10:56,410 --> 01:10:54,590 think cases strong cases need to be 1837 01:10:58,840 --> 01:10:56,420 knocked down for the sake of it what I 1838 01:11:01,660 --> 01:10:58,850 do think when a case has been built up 1839 01:11:03,310 --> 01:11:01,670 on faith you know and you know if 1840 01:11:04,600 --> 01:11:03,320 anybody goes out to the crash site today 1841 01:11:06,040 --> 01:11:04,610 they're not going out to doing 1842 01:11:09,640 --> 01:11:06,050 investigations and that's the trip to 1843 01:11:11,229 --> 01:11:09,650 Mecca yes and that's the problem you 1844 01:11:13,150 --> 01:11:11,239 know I don't knock significant cases 1845 01:11:15,280 --> 01:11:13,160 because they're easy to knock down or 1846 01:11:17,620 --> 01:11:15,290 hearts are not down if there's another 1847 01:11:18,189 --> 01:11:17,630 argument or another idea we should look 1848 01:11:20,140 --> 01:11:18,199 into it 1849 01:11:21,939 --> 01:11:20,150 you know I can almost see the day when 1850 01:11:23,530 --> 01:11:21,949 UFO conferences are just held on a 1851 01:11:24,850 --> 01:11:23,540 Sunday morning you know and then the 1852 01:11:26,620 --> 01:11:24,860 organizer goes around with a plate 1853 01:11:28,780 --> 01:11:26,630 collecting money at the end you do 1854 01:11:30,610 --> 01:11:28,790 getting to reserve your space in the 1855 01:11:35,050 --> 01:11:30,620 convention well that shows a much I know 1856 01:11:37,450 --> 01:11:35,060 about you you know I can joking aside I 1857 01:11:39,040 --> 01:11:37,460 can almost see that happening be Paul 1858 01:11:40,540 --> 01:11:39,050 made one of the most important points of 1859 01:11:43,090 --> 01:11:40,550 an eye there that you know for many 1860 01:11:45,490 --> 01:11:43,100 people the subject there's no mystery 1861 01:11:47,110 --> 01:11:45,500 it's a given as to what's going on in 1862 01:11:49,030 --> 01:11:47,120 the same way it's a given that when you 1863 01:11:50,229 --> 01:11:49,040 die if you've been good you're gonna go 1864 01:11:51,729 --> 01:11:50,239 to heaven if you've been bad you're 1865 01:11:53,979 --> 01:11:51,739 gonna go to hell and be prodded by this 1866 01:11:55,029 --> 01:11:53,989 guy with you know pitchfork and horns 1867 01:11:57,429 --> 01:11:55,039 for the 1868 01:11:58,869 --> 01:11:57,439 all eternity it's a theory you know in 1869 01:12:02,379 --> 01:11:58,879 the same way that other religions hold 1870 01:12:04,779 --> 01:12:02,389 to reincarnation but ufology for some 1871 01:12:06,909 --> 01:12:04,789 weird reason just cannot get its head 1872 01:12:09,429 --> 01:12:06,919 mainstream ufologist cannot get its head 1873 01:12:12,039 --> 01:12:09,439 out of the 88 which might be right but 1874 01:12:13,899 --> 01:12:12,049 you can't advocate it loudly 1875 01:12:16,449 --> 01:12:13,909 without evidence you can only offer it 1876 01:12:18,520 --> 01:12:16,459 as a suggestion and nobody is offering - 1877 01:12:20,919 --> 01:12:18,530 it's a conclusion yeah it's weird you 1878 01:12:23,289 --> 01:12:20,929 know Mac would I kind of view Mac is the 1879 01:12:25,239 --> 01:12:23,299 guy who would walk into a Christian 1880 01:12:26,859 --> 01:12:25,249 prayer meeting for instance and he'd say 1881 01:12:27,909 --> 01:12:26,869 well you know what we might be on to 1882 01:12:29,949 --> 01:12:27,919 something here guys but I was just 1883 01:12:31,539 --> 01:12:29,959 talking to this Buddhist and he had some 1884 01:12:35,289 --> 01:12:31,549 really interesting things to say - we 1885 01:12:39,039 --> 01:12:35,299 should have a chat with him yeah I know 1886 01:12:40,629 --> 01:12:39,049 and beaten and battered and you know 1887 01:12:42,939 --> 01:12:40,639 well their own out but there is an 1888 01:12:44,859 --> 01:12:42,949 element a very vibrant element within 1889 01:12:46,419 --> 01:12:44,869 Christian thought that accepts stuff 1890 01:12:48,549 --> 01:12:46,429 like that they're wide ranging and they 1891 01:12:50,049 --> 01:12:48,559 embrace other face and every you know 1892 01:12:52,029 --> 01:12:50,059 and then all face there's an element 1893 01:12:53,589 --> 01:12:52,039 within all faiths that looks at other 1894 01:12:55,659 --> 01:12:53,599 face and says can we learn from these 1895 01:12:57,699 --> 01:12:55,669 other faiths and then there are elements 1896 01:12:59,529 --> 01:12:57,709 whether it's Islam or Christianity and 1897 01:13:02,409 --> 01:12:59,539 all faiths that say no ours is the only 1898 01:13:04,329 --> 01:13:02,419 way to heaven and you know to stretch 1899 01:13:06,520 --> 01:13:04,339 the religious metaphor - it's a lot 1900 01:13:08,889 --> 01:13:06,530 ultimate conclusion I guess you follow 1901 01:13:11,319 --> 01:13:08,899 Jesus like that and I think we all agree 1902 01:13:15,369 --> 01:13:11,329 were saved from the same in book here 1903 01:13:17,439 --> 01:13:15,379 the ETH is that it's the only way to get 1904 01:13:19,359 --> 01:13:17,449 in and Mac the nice thing about the 1905 01:13:21,189 --> 01:13:19,369 crypto terrestrial hypothesis is he's 1906 01:13:23,439 --> 01:13:21,199 basically saying well you know what that 1907 01:13:25,149 --> 01:13:23,449 possibly but there's these Buddhists 1908 01:13:26,439 --> 01:13:25,159 over here ie the crypto terrestrials 1909 01:13:28,899 --> 01:13:26,449 they've got some interesting things so 1910 01:13:30,609 --> 01:13:28,909 let's look at all of it I I don't know 1911 01:13:32,529 --> 01:13:30,619 why you two guys but I can't imagine any 1912 01:13:34,389 --> 01:13:32,539 other way of looking at it than the way 1913 01:13:36,039 --> 01:13:34,399 he was looking at it and so if the 1914 01:13:39,459 --> 01:13:36,049 crypto terrestrials which i recommend 1915 01:13:42,309 --> 01:13:39,469 everybody reads and buys if it is a if 1916 01:13:45,219 --> 01:13:42,319 machs final contribution was to take a 1917 01:13:47,259 --> 01:13:45,229 cattle prod and stick it where the Sun 1918 01:13:50,049 --> 01:13:47,269 doesn't shine in ufology and then hit 1919 01:13:51,759 --> 01:13:50,059 the Electrify switch then I think I 1920 01:13:52,929 --> 01:13:51,769 think he would be happy with that and I 1921 01:13:53,979 --> 01:13:52,939 think that's the most important 1922 01:13:55,809 --> 01:13:53,989 contribution he could have made 1923 01:13:58,270 --> 01:13:55,819 regardless of whether there's crypto 1924 01:14:00,330 --> 01:13:58,280 terrestrials or not he woke us all up he 1925 01:14:08,080 --> 01:14:00,340 gets us talking again 1926 01:14:13,640 --> 01:14:10,850 hey neighbors would you like to see the 1927 01:14:15,320 --> 01:14:13,650 power cast live long and prosper well if 1928 01:14:17,660 --> 01:14:15,330 you know of anyone who wants to 1929 01:14:19,820 --> 01:14:17,670 advertise their products or services on 1930 01:14:22,550 --> 01:14:19,830 the power cast have them contact us 1931 01:14:26,120 --> 01:14:22,560 directly tell them to write to sales at 1932 01:14:29,120 --> 01:14:26,130 the para cast com that's sales and the 1933 01:14:30,770 --> 01:14:29,130 para cast come and we also accept your 1934 01:14:32,870 --> 01:14:30,780 donations by PayPal 1935 01:14:36,439 --> 01:14:32,880 send your PayPal donation to the same 1936 01:14:39,380 --> 01:14:36,449 address sales at the para cast combat 1937 01:14:42,800 --> 01:14:39,390 sales at the power cast calm and thanks 1938 01:14:45,950 --> 01:14:42,810 for listening hi this is Don Ecker and 1939 01:14:47,870 --> 01:14:45,960 you are tuned in to the para cast let me 1940 01:14:50,570 --> 01:14:47,880 tell you what you're gonna hear stuff 1941 01:14:53,709 --> 01:14:50,580 here that you probably won't hear 1942 01:14:57,890 --> 01:14:53,719 anywhere else hear that George snoring 1943 01:15:00,410 --> 01:14:57,900 this is camel prod radio co-host Paul 1944 01:15:02,780 --> 01:15:00,420 Kimbo featuring Nicholas Redfern Greg 1945 01:15:05,060 --> 01:15:02,790 Bishop the topic of discussion is Mac 1946 01:15:07,250 --> 01:15:05,070 Tony's false experiment the crypto 1947 01:15:09,680 --> 01:15:07,260 terrestrials and if you go to the para 1948 01:15:11,810 --> 01:15:09,690 cast comm and click on the title of the 1949 01:15:13,580 --> 01:15:11,820 book it takes you right to Amazon books 1950 01:15:17,930 --> 01:15:13,590 we I think that had now for 10 dollars a 1951 01:15:21,740 --> 01:15:17,940 copy discounted so please give up to two 1952 01:15:24,050 --> 01:15:21,750 coffees at Starbucks get yourself a copy 1953 01:15:26,750 --> 01:15:24,060 sit down read the book that'll take you 1954 01:15:29,750 --> 01:15:26,760 two or three hours and start a thinking 1955 01:15:31,490 --> 01:15:29,760 about what's going on we are down to 45 1956 01:15:33,410 --> 01:15:31,500 minutes and maybe have about six hours 1957 01:15:37,160 --> 01:15:33,420 to go before we continue 1958 01:15:38,870 --> 01:15:37,170 what about UFO abductions now there's so 1959 01:15:41,419 --> 01:15:38,880 many going on is it's something that 1960 01:15:44,390 --> 01:15:41,429 they're staging are people picking up on 1961 01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:44,400 some kind of frequency and just getting 1962 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:52,890 these messages one questions come up we 1963 01:15:57,200 --> 01:15:54,690 all Nick and I always defer to Greg well 1964 01:15:58,750 --> 01:15:57,210 we sort of think yeah so that I can say 1965 01:16:02,180 --> 01:15:58,760 something then you can riff on it 1966 01:16:04,280 --> 01:16:02,190 exactly well in math spooky actually 1967 01:16:06,830 --> 01:16:04,290 it's the same thing that I generally 1968 01:16:07,990 --> 01:16:06,840 think about abductions that number one 1969 01:16:10,330 --> 01:16:08,000 and that's Abby 1970 01:16:13,090 --> 01:16:10,340 and it overshadows all the other things 1971 01:16:15,460 --> 01:16:13,100 that he says and I would say we don't 1972 01:16:17,230 --> 01:16:15,470 actually know what's going on we don't 1973 01:16:19,360 --> 01:16:17,240 know that it's aliens from other planets 1974 01:16:21,220 --> 01:16:19,370 or whatever we don't even know if 1975 01:16:23,710 --> 01:16:21,230 they're physically real in the way that 1976 01:16:25,240 --> 01:16:23,720 we think physically real is because we 1977 01:16:27,430 --> 01:16:25,250 have no real evidence we don't have 1978 01:16:29,920 --> 01:16:27,440 videotape of it happening we don't have 1979 01:16:31,870 --> 01:16:29,930 pictures of it at least any any than 1980 01:16:34,870 --> 01:16:31,880 anyone would accept and a wide you know 1981 01:16:37,000 --> 01:16:34,880 in wide release I suppose but there is 1982 01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:37,010 definitely something going on and there 1983 01:16:42,070 --> 01:16:38,890 are definitely people that are having 1984 01:16:44,110 --> 01:16:42,080 strange experiences and a lot of them 1985 01:16:45,580 --> 01:16:44,120 match up with each other so what does 1986 01:16:47,950 --> 01:16:45,590 that tell us it tells us that we don't 1987 01:16:49,840 --> 01:16:47,960 know everything we know maybe we don't 1988 01:16:52,690 --> 01:16:49,850 know everything maybe we don't know 1989 01:16:54,490 --> 01:16:52,700 everything we know either we don't know 1990 01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:54,500 everything about the way the human mind 1991 01:16:58,900 --> 01:16:56,530 works and the way it interfaces with 1992 01:17:01,120 --> 01:16:58,910 whatever would that were the reality 1993 01:17:03,730 --> 01:17:01,130 that it lives in and the ones were not 1994 01:17:07,090 --> 01:17:03,740 aware of the the quote I keep coming 1995 01:17:09,160 --> 01:17:07,100 back to was told to me by Mario Ponzo 1996 01:17:11,080 --> 01:17:09,170 galini it was a clinical psychologist 1997 01:17:15,370 --> 01:17:11,090 who had a heavy interest in the UFO 1998 01:17:17,680 --> 01:17:15,380 subject he died in 1998 I believe but I 1999 01:17:19,600 --> 01:17:17,690 knew him for about four years and the 2000 01:17:22,060 --> 01:17:19,610 quote that I always come back to from 2001 01:17:24,190 --> 01:17:22,070 him it was about abduction researchers 2002 01:17:25,900 --> 01:17:24,200 and he knew of where he's folks and said 2003 01:17:28,270 --> 01:17:25,910 he's a professional background he said 2004 01:17:30,700 --> 01:17:28,280 that they have little understanding or 2005 01:17:33,610 --> 01:17:30,710 respect for the subconscious and I think 2006 01:17:36,520 --> 01:17:33,620 that's kind of the linchpin on what's 2007 01:17:38,800 --> 01:17:36,530 going on with abduction research is that 2008 01:17:41,050 --> 01:17:38,810 they're accepting what people tell them 2009 01:17:43,330 --> 01:17:41,060 as a reality that any of us could 2010 01:17:45,310 --> 01:17:43,340 experience given the right circumstances 2011 01:17:47,470 --> 01:17:45,320 and I don't agree with that and neither 2012 01:17:49,450 --> 01:17:47,480 did Mack and he went into extensively in 2013 01:17:51,790 --> 01:17:49,460 the book one of the things about the and 2014 01:17:54,370 --> 01:17:51,800 I have a sort of very critical view of 2015 01:17:56,290 --> 01:17:54,380 the quote quote alien abduction and 2016 01:17:59,140 --> 01:17:56,300 quote researchers like Budd Hopkins and 2017 01:18:01,360 --> 01:17:59,150 David Jacobs and their methodology but I 2018 01:18:03,370 --> 01:18:01,370 don't dismiss and I think most alien 2019 01:18:05,350 --> 01:18:03,380 abduction or say let's say abduction 2020 01:18:07,720 --> 01:18:05,360 cases can be explained without resort to 2021 01:18:09,970 --> 01:18:07,730 the paranormal but they're like the UFO 2022 01:18:12,220 --> 01:18:09,980 phenomenon there is a residue of cases I 2023 01:18:14,950 --> 01:18:12,230 think they're the more weird ones the 2024 01:18:16,630 --> 01:18:14,960 more anomalous ones that don't fit sort 2025 01:18:18,869 --> 01:18:16,640 of the rigid pattern that somebody like 2026 01:18:20,790 --> 01:18:18,879 David Jacobs would find in every case 2027 01:18:22,949 --> 01:18:20,800 the the interesting alien abduction 2028 01:18:26,099 --> 01:18:22,959 cases are the ones that seem to be to me 2029 01:18:29,279 --> 01:18:26,109 much more personal and different and I 2030 01:18:30,719 --> 01:18:29,289 would say that it's possible and Mac 2031 01:18:32,939 --> 01:18:30,729 might have been on I know Mac and I 2032 01:18:35,849 --> 01:18:32,949 talked about this on several occasions 2033 01:18:37,049 --> 01:18:35,859 that you have UFO abduction researchers 2034 01:18:38,969 --> 01:18:37,059 who are looking at the abduction 2035 01:18:40,349 --> 01:18:38,979 phenomenon or enigma skimming random 2036 01:18:42,899 --> 01:18:40,359 would call it from a purely physical 2037 01:18:44,520 --> 01:18:42,909 point of view the aliens condemned they 2038 01:18:46,139 --> 01:18:44,530 walk through your walls somehow they 2039 01:18:47,580 --> 01:18:46,149 take you out of your bed up to the 2040 01:18:49,259 --> 01:18:47,590 spaceship they prod you they put you 2041 01:18:51,689 --> 01:18:49,269 back in your bed you that's it it 2042 01:18:53,279 --> 01:18:51,699 literally happens whereas what if what's 2043 01:18:55,439 --> 01:18:53,289 happening is all happening within your 2044 01:18:56,639 --> 01:18:55,449 mind it doesn't mean you're creating it 2045 01:18:58,589 --> 01:18:56,649 it doesn't I'm not saying you're crazy 2046 01:19:00,270 --> 01:18:58,599 but what if it's happening it happening 2047 01:19:02,609 --> 01:19:00,280 at a different level of consciousness 2048 01:19:04,589 --> 01:19:02,619 almost like an out-of-body experience or 2049 01:19:06,719 --> 01:19:04,599 something like that and it could be 2050 01:19:09,199 --> 01:19:06,729 crypto terrestrials or aliens or some 2051 01:19:11,879 --> 01:19:09,209 other intelligence that's non-human 2052 01:19:13,439 --> 01:19:11,889 contacting us dealing with us in the 2053 01:19:15,629 --> 01:19:13,449 only way maybe that we can rationalize 2054 01:19:17,819 --> 01:19:15,639 within our own subconscious but it's not 2055 01:19:19,409 --> 01:19:17,829 actually physically happening it's 2056 01:19:21,540 --> 01:19:19,419 happening in our mind while we're asleep 2057 01:19:23,219 --> 01:19:21,550 and there's so much about our brain that 2058 01:19:26,310 --> 01:19:23,229 we don't understand how it works that 2059 01:19:28,889 --> 01:19:26,320 idea to me seems attractive and it also 2060 01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:28,899 helps explain I think some of the 2061 01:19:33,810 --> 01:19:31,050 similarities between the alien abduction 2062 01:19:35,429 --> 01:19:33,820 mythos stories and the fact that these 2063 01:19:38,040 --> 01:19:35,439 kinds of encounters have been going on 2064 01:19:39,689 --> 01:19:38,050 for all of recorded human history it's 2065 01:19:42,270 --> 01:19:39,699 just a different you know it used to be 2066 01:19:44,429 --> 01:19:42,280 succubi or old hags and now it's aliens 2067 01:19:46,889 --> 01:19:44,439 so maybe they're contacting us through 2068 01:19:49,080 --> 01:19:46,899 our subconscious in ways that we can 2069 01:19:51,179 --> 01:19:49,090 understand in our own particular time 2070 01:19:53,729 --> 01:19:51,189 period Nick what do you think of that 2071 01:19:55,649 --> 01:19:53,739 idea I actually agree with what a lot of 2072 01:19:57,750 --> 01:19:55,659 what you just said Paul pretty much for 2073 01:19:59,729 --> 01:19:57,760 the most part you know I mean I've 2074 01:20:02,189 --> 01:19:59,739 looked extensively into the abduction 2075 01:20:04,469 --> 01:20:02,199 phenomenon and you know there's several 2076 01:20:06,389 --> 01:20:04,479 important things to be aware of you know 2077 01:20:09,540 --> 01:20:06,399 you touched on one at the very end the 2078 01:20:13,109 --> 01:20:09,550 fact that you know abductions in the 2079 01:20:16,020 --> 01:20:13,119 literal present day scenario okay 2080 01:20:17,939 --> 01:20:16,030 they've only been reported for 50 60 2081 01:20:19,919 --> 01:20:17,949 years or whatever or people have been 2082 01:20:21,330 --> 01:20:19,929 hypnotized have said you know back in 2083 01:20:24,359 --> 01:20:21,340 the thirties or forties when they were 2084 01:20:26,580 --> 01:20:24,369 little kids they were abducted but you 2085 01:20:29,639 --> 01:20:26,590 know abductions are such don't go back 2086 01:20:32,460 --> 01:20:29,649 much before that but encounters and 2087 01:20:35,670 --> 01:20:32,470 abductions undertaken by 2088 01:20:37,440 --> 01:20:35,680 mysterious creatures bizarre entities go 2089 01:20:39,630 --> 01:20:37,450 back to the dawn at a time you know you 2090 01:20:42,960 --> 01:20:39,640 can go back to ancient Babylon where 2091 01:20:44,940 --> 01:20:42,970 they had legends and tales of demonic 2092 01:20:47,160 --> 01:20:44,950 entities that have had an obsessive 2093 01:20:49,530 --> 01:20:47,170 interest in human reproduction and 2094 01:20:52,020 --> 01:20:49,540 babies you know what's the difference 2095 01:20:54,960 --> 01:20:52,030 between that and today's greys in the 2096 01:20:56,580 --> 01:20:54,970 1500 and 1600 in Britain you know I can 2097 01:20:59,520 --> 01:20:56,590 tell you coming from Britain there's a 2098 01:21:02,160 --> 01:20:59,530 huge body of literature about faerie 2099 01:21:04,530 --> 01:21:02,170 encounters where a guy would you know go 2100 01:21:07,350 --> 01:21:04,540 up into the woods and he'd lose track of 2101 01:21:08,880 --> 01:21:07,360 time he'd be taken to the fairy Kingdom 2102 01:21:11,310 --> 01:21:08,890 where he has to mate with a fairy queen 2103 01:21:14,010 --> 01:21:11,320 he comes back to reality 2104 01:21:16,380 --> 01:21:14,020 he thinks three days has gone by and 45 2105 01:21:19,440 --> 01:21:16,390 minutes has gone by people who deny 2106 01:21:21,780 --> 01:21:19,450 there's not a parallel here are actually 2107 01:21:24,480 --> 01:21:21,790 denying part of the phenomenon there is 2108 01:21:26,820 --> 01:21:24,490 a parallel it's just that the UFO motif 2109 01:21:29,250 --> 01:21:26,830 it's the present-day motif and there's 2110 01:21:31,050 --> 01:21:29,260 also theological aspects that Mac talks 2111 01:21:33,360 --> 01:21:31,060 about in his book you know the idea of 2112 01:21:35,370 --> 01:21:33,370 this extraterrestrials from a star 2113 01:21:37,740 --> 01:21:35,380 system X number of light-years away 2114 01:21:40,350 --> 01:21:37,750 would be so compatible with us that our 2115 01:21:42,510 --> 01:21:40,360 genetic makeup would allow them to save 2116 01:21:44,760 --> 01:21:42,520 their race by just scooping a few eggs 2117 01:21:47,430 --> 01:21:44,770 and sperm here and there you know that's 2118 01:21:49,530 --> 01:21:47,440 that's just so simplistic and I think 2119 01:21:52,710 --> 01:21:49,540 for me one of the most laughable things 2120 01:21:55,950 --> 01:21:52,720 is the whole star mer Betty and Barney 2121 01:21:57,990 --> 01:21:55,960 Hill angle you know it's kind of like I 2122 01:22:00,240 --> 01:21:58,000 mean can you imagine Armstrong Aldrin 2123 01:22:03,600 --> 01:22:00,250 and Collins going to the moon with a 2124 01:22:06,540 --> 01:22:03,610 fold-out map you know and it's kind of 2125 01:22:08,160 --> 01:22:06,550 like the idea of the aliens that the 2126 01:22:09,630 --> 01:22:08,170 hills met I actually do believe the 2127 01:22:11,670 --> 01:22:09,640 hills at a genuinely anomalous 2128 01:22:14,100 --> 01:22:11,680 experience I really do believe that but 2129 01:22:16,140 --> 01:22:14,110 if they were shown a star map and they 2130 01:22:18,600 --> 01:22:16,150 may well have been to me that would be 2131 01:22:20,220 --> 01:22:18,610 more in thinking and in line instead of 2132 01:22:22,020 --> 01:22:20,230 being abducted by aliens that would be 2133 01:22:23,760 --> 01:22:22,030 lying with trying to convince them 2134 01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:23,770 that's what was going on well here's our 2135 01:22:27,120 --> 01:22:26,050 alien map so we're obviously alien you 2136 01:22:29,640 --> 01:22:27,130 know that we're more in line with a 2137 01:22:32,040 --> 01:22:29,650 crypto terrestrial theory of subterfuge 2138 01:22:34,110 --> 01:22:32,050 in camouflage but for me the idea of 2139 01:22:36,480 --> 01:22:34,120 having something so simplistic as a map 2140 01:22:38,130 --> 01:22:36,490 you're in space you know we're moving 2141 01:22:40,260 --> 01:22:38,140 through space right now in X number of 2142 01:22:42,510 --> 01:22:40,270 thousands of miles an hour and again for 2143 01:22:45,150 --> 01:22:42,520 one planet to another you don't travel 2144 01:22:45,579 --> 01:22:45,160 from point A to point B you know you you 2145 01:22:47,619 --> 01:22:45,589 think 2146 01:22:50,139 --> 01:22:47,629 we're point B is going to be when you 2147 01:22:53,889 --> 01:22:50,149 get there to me in the abduction 2148 01:22:55,899 --> 01:22:53,899 scenario that map was not created to 2149 01:22:58,989 --> 01:22:55,909 allow the so-called aliens to traverse 2150 01:23:01,329 --> 01:22:58,999 the universe that map was created as a 2151 01:23:03,429 --> 01:23:01,339 stage prop for the hills well there's 2152 01:23:05,020 --> 01:23:03,439 another question here too that I think 2153 01:23:07,359 --> 01:23:05,030 is implicit on what's been said so far 2154 01:23:09,520 --> 01:23:07,369 are these abductions individual 2155 01:23:12,129 --> 01:23:09,530 experiences or are people just tapping 2156 01:23:14,139 --> 01:23:12,139 into something that goes on anyway like 2157 01:23:16,359 --> 01:23:14,149 turning on your TV set and sing channel 2158 01:23:19,059 --> 01:23:16,369 304 well it's interesting there's some 2159 01:23:20,290 --> 01:23:19,069 let's throw that to Greg but I just want 2160 01:23:22,329 --> 01:23:20,300 to read something from the pair of cast 2161 01:23:25,059 --> 01:23:22,339 forms there's a user at the pair cast 2162 01:23:26,859 --> 01:23:25,069 forums known as trained observer and in 2163 01:23:29,829 --> 01:23:26,869 one of the crypto terrestrial threads he 2164 01:23:31,869 --> 01:23:29,839 writes CTS make as much sense as ETS or 2165 01:23:34,209 --> 01:23:31,879 transdimensional beings we could be as 2166 01:23:36,879 --> 01:23:34,219 blind deaf and dumb to a CCT 2167 01:23:38,919 --> 01:23:36,889 civilization society as a goldfish or 2168 01:23:40,419 --> 01:23:38,929 and add to a human society something 2169 01:23:42,069 --> 01:23:40,429 appears to come and go as it pleases 2170 01:23:44,529 --> 01:23:42,079 leaving us only with a partial and 2171 01:23:46,569 --> 01:23:44,539 probably unintentional awareness of the 2172 01:23:48,909 --> 01:23:46,579 presence in the form of the UFO and 2173 01:23:50,469 --> 01:23:48,919 paranormal phenomenon what do you think 2174 01:23:53,250 --> 01:23:50,479 of that Greg what do you think of the 2175 01:23:55,829 --> 01:23:53,260 idea that maybe it's unintentional that 2176 01:23:59,109 --> 01:23:55,839 they're not trying to interact with us 2177 01:24:00,969 --> 01:23:59,119 so much as and you pick up on genes 2178 01:24:03,279 --> 01:24:00,979 point to but also this point that the 2179 01:24:05,020 --> 01:24:03,289 trained observer race that it could be 2180 01:24:07,270 --> 01:24:05,030 unintentional that whatever is on this 2181 01:24:09,399 --> 01:24:07,280 planet is so far evolved above us as 2182 01:24:11,319 --> 01:24:09,409 Nishioka would say we could be listening 2183 01:24:13,479 --> 01:24:11,329 in on a conversation but not have any 2184 01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:13,489 clue as to what it might be it could be 2185 01:24:19,449 --> 01:24:16,010 true but it doesn't explain you know the 2186 01:24:22,779 --> 01:24:19,459 seeming intent behind wanting to contact 2187 01:24:25,989 --> 01:24:22,789 us and I did Mac and I and I'm sure Nick 2188 01:24:27,399 --> 01:24:25,999 and Paul and maybe Jean were fairly 2189 01:24:30,549 --> 01:24:27,409 convinced that there's something that's 2190 01:24:32,169 --> 01:24:30,559 not human that has has some sort of 2191 01:24:35,169 --> 01:24:32,179 consciousness that interacts with us 2192 01:24:37,359 --> 01:24:35,179 occasionally so I I wouldn't say that 2193 01:24:40,359 --> 01:24:37,369 we're just looking in on something and 2194 01:24:42,009 --> 01:24:40,369 putting our own our own spin on it I 2195 01:24:45,369 --> 01:24:42,019 think that's a great part of it but I 2196 01:24:46,779 --> 01:24:45,379 think there's a need seems to be and I'm 2197 01:24:49,149 --> 01:24:46,789 not gonna you know I don't believe 2198 01:24:51,809 --> 01:24:49,159 anything I just have heavier beliefs and 2199 01:24:54,770 --> 01:24:51,819 not so heavy believes but it seems to be 2200 01:24:56,240 --> 01:24:54,780 there's something there that's that once 2201 01:24:57,950 --> 01:24:56,250 sort of contact with us and it's 2202 01:25:01,729 --> 01:24:57,960 connected I'm kind of an intimate level 2203 01:25:03,589 --> 01:25:01,739 through our subconscious and and has 2204 01:25:05,209 --> 01:25:03,599 been going as Paul said and a lot of 2205 01:25:06,890 --> 01:25:05,219 people said has been going on for 2206 01:25:09,319 --> 01:25:06,900 thousands of thousands of years songs 2207 01:25:12,319 --> 01:25:09,329 has been recorded history well what was 2208 01:25:14,870 --> 01:25:12,329 your question Jean was o was the is is 2209 01:25:17,750 --> 01:25:14,880 are we just tuning into something with 2210 01:25:19,760 --> 01:25:17,760 abductions or or is it individual right 2211 01:25:21,890 --> 01:25:19,770 I don't think it's an and/or question I 2212 01:25:23,510 --> 01:25:21,900 think if you look at the literature and 2213 01:25:25,459 --> 01:25:23,520 talk to people which I have I think 2214 01:25:26,810 --> 01:25:25,469 there's elements of both there there is 2215 01:25:29,330 --> 01:25:26,820 something going on there he is a 2216 01:25:31,669 --> 01:25:29,340 separate consciousness in reality is 2217 01:25:34,180 --> 01:25:31,679 I'll put in quotes separate separate 2218 01:25:36,979 --> 01:25:34,190 conscious and reality from us and 2219 01:25:40,010 --> 01:25:36,989 occasionally we will interact with it 2220 01:25:42,740 --> 01:25:40,020 and the reactions to it like I said are 2221 01:25:44,479 --> 01:25:42,750 as individual as people are but yes I 2222 01:25:46,339 --> 01:25:44,489 believe that there is something there 2223 01:25:48,500 --> 01:25:46,349 now past that I don't have an 2224 01:25:50,750 --> 01:25:48,510 explanation for it but I you know we all 2225 01:25:54,850 --> 01:25:50,760 we've all heard I've seen and read about 2226 01:26:00,300 --> 01:25:57,320 [Music] 2227 01:26:02,130 --> 01:26:00,310 hi this is tomorrow from Namecheap we're 2228 01:26:04,020 --> 01:26:02,140 a domain name and web hosting company 2229 01:26:06,060 --> 01:26:04,030 and we really care about our customers 2230 01:26:08,400 --> 01:26:06,070 with domain name purchases Namecheap 2231 01:26:10,350 --> 01:26:08,410 offers free SSL and free who is guard 2232 01:26:12,120 --> 01:26:10,360 for a year to protect your identity from 2233 01:26:14,310 --> 01:26:12,130 the spammers we won't bother you with 2234 01:26:16,290 --> 01:26:14,320 unwanted messaging in your inbox or upon 2235 01:26:17,970 --> 01:26:16,300 checkout but most importantly we care 2236 01:26:19,770 --> 01:26:17,980 about you our customers your 2237 01:26:21,900 --> 01:26:19,780 satisfaction and happiness is our 2238 01:26:23,670 --> 01:26:21,910 primary focus because your support means 2239 01:26:26,400 --> 01:26:23,680 so much to us if you'd like to learn 2240 01:26:28,500 --> 01:26:26,410 more please visit us at radio name chief 2241 01:26:30,390 --> 01:26:28,510 comm for web hosting and domain name 2242 01:26:35,760 --> 01:26:30,400 specials you can also follow us on 2243 01:26:38,220 --> 01:26:35,770 twitter at twitter.com/zeromd bars on 2244 01:26:50,970 --> 01:26:38,230 facebook at facebook.com slash Namecheap 2245 01:26:52,740 --> 01:26:50,980 see you online next we're doing a 2246 01:26:54,870 --> 01:26:52,750 thought experiment of the parapets this 2247 01:26:56,340 --> 01:26:54,880 week in honor of the late mac tony's and 2248 01:26:59,070 --> 01:26:56,350 his final work that the crypto 2249 01:27:00,960 --> 01:26:59,080 terrestrials our co-host is paul Kimball 2250 01:27:02,940 --> 01:27:00,970 we have Nicolas Redfern and Greg Bishop 2251 01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:02,950 and of course another question that hits 2252 01:27:08,340 --> 01:27:06,130 me if these are physical real beings of 2253 01:27:11,100 --> 01:27:08,350 whatever level achievement and they see 2254 01:27:12,810 --> 01:27:11,110 we're doing really bad things why not 2255 01:27:15,690 --> 01:27:12,820 get in touch with our governments on a 2256 01:27:17,430 --> 01:27:15,700 more direct level and say hey guys we 2257 01:27:19,500 --> 01:27:17,440 got to work together we're in this 2258 01:27:21,090 --> 01:27:19,510 together or maybe they don't think 2259 01:27:22,830 --> 01:27:21,100 they'd listen well if you look at the 2260 01:27:24,990 --> 01:27:22,840 way the leadership is gone on this 2261 01:27:26,550 --> 01:27:25,000 planet for the entire recorded history I 2262 01:27:28,200 --> 01:27:26,560 think it would be a bad choice to get in 2263 01:27:30,780 --> 01:27:28,210 touch with the leaders or their 2264 01:27:32,520 --> 01:27:30,790 followers frankly yeah you know it 2265 01:27:35,070 --> 01:27:32,530 brings up that whitley strieber idea 2266 01:27:37,350 --> 01:27:35,080 that he thinks that whatever it is is 2267 01:27:39,270 --> 01:27:37,360 trying to affect people on an individual 2268 01:27:41,070 --> 01:27:39,280 basis from the bottom up with which 2269 01:27:42,810 --> 01:27:41,080 which makes sense I mean this has a 2270 01:27:45,000 --> 01:27:42,820 thought experiment that makes a lot more 2271 01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:45,010 sense and then taking me to your leader 2272 01:27:49,170 --> 01:27:46,930 so to speak so it's not trickle-down 2273 01:27:53,610 --> 01:27:49,180 theory we all use trickle-down economics 2274 01:27:56,460 --> 01:27:53,620 in the UFO field no trickle up you're 2275 01:27:58,410 --> 01:27:56,470 the anti Ronald Reagan yes it's I don't 2276 01:28:00,990 --> 01:27:58,420 know it's it's it's just weird like 2277 01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:01,000 unless they are exactly the same as us 2278 01:28:04,820 --> 01:28:02,170 why would they want to talk to our 2279 01:28:08,130 --> 01:28:04,830 leaders that would be like frankly us 2280 01:28:10,079 --> 01:28:08,140 going to I'm not gonna use the ant an 2281 01:28:11,819 --> 01:28:10,089 example again but I don't know 2282 01:28:13,829 --> 01:28:11,829 say you got 20 dogs running down the 2283 01:28:15,869 --> 01:28:13,839 street and you look at them you go hmm 2284 01:28:18,719 --> 01:28:15,879 well let's talk to the leader dog well I 2285 01:28:20,609 --> 01:28:18,729 don't know one dog is the same as the 2286 01:28:22,079 --> 01:28:20,619 next so if they're if we are dealing 2287 01:28:24,119 --> 01:28:22,089 with an intelligence that's more 2288 01:28:25,919 --> 01:28:24,129 advanced than us I don't think they 2289 01:28:27,989 --> 01:28:25,929 would particularly care that Barack 2290 01:28:30,779 --> 01:28:27,999 Obama happens to be the President of the 2291 01:28:34,169 --> 01:28:30,789 United States to them to hit to whatever 2292 01:28:36,439 --> 01:28:34,179 he's just one of six and a half billion 2293 01:28:38,729 --> 01:28:36,449 of us especially if you view it as as 2294 01:28:41,299 --> 01:28:38,739 they've been here for hundreds or 2295 01:28:43,709 --> 01:28:41,309 thousands of years I mean we come we go 2296 01:28:45,540 --> 01:28:43,719 if this is something that's been with us 2297 01:28:47,849 --> 01:28:45,550 throughout our recorded history and 2298 01:28:50,129 --> 01:28:47,859 perhaps even longer you know we're a 2299 01:28:52,559 --> 01:28:50,139 drop in the bucket and even using the 2300 01:28:54,239 --> 01:28:52,569 extra-terrestrial hypothesis if it takes 2301 01:28:57,119 --> 01:28:54,249 them you know from the nearest star 2302 01:28:58,409 --> 01:28:57,129 system even traveling at near the speed 2303 01:28:59,339 --> 01:28:58,419 of light it would take them four or five 2304 01:29:02,819 --> 01:28:59,349 years to get here 2305 01:29:04,939 --> 01:29:02,829 I think surround them either yeah I know 2306 01:29:07,439 --> 01:29:04,949 Paul science bad but let's say it takes 2307 01:29:10,949 --> 01:29:07,449 many years to get here even if they just 2308 01:29:12,179 --> 01:29:10,959 used warp seven engage well or maybe 2309 01:29:13,529 --> 01:29:12,189 they're using wormholes or whatever I 2310 01:29:15,329 --> 01:29:13,539 don't know but let's assume it might 2311 01:29:17,129 --> 01:29:15,339 take a little while to get here are they 2312 01:29:19,619 --> 01:29:17,139 really going to care too much about 2313 01:29:21,659 --> 01:29:19,629 talking to any one particular human 2314 01:29:23,609 --> 01:29:21,669 being now we'd all be the same you know 2315 01:29:25,169 --> 01:29:23,619 they're far in advance of us so in the 2316 01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:25,179 same way that it's it's kind of a 2317 01:29:28,109 --> 01:29:26,800 historical thing I'm sorry now I'm 2318 01:29:30,059 --> 01:29:28,119 thought experimenting but I remember 2319 01:29:31,770 --> 01:29:30,069 when I was doing my graduate work in 2320 01:29:33,989 --> 01:29:31,780 history there's a school of thought 2321 01:29:35,969 --> 01:29:33,999 because in the old days people studying 2322 01:29:37,859 --> 01:29:35,979 history would look at leaders there you 2323 01:29:39,629 --> 01:29:37,869 go they would say we need to learn about 2324 01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:39,639 the kings and the queens and the lords 2325 01:29:42,929 --> 01:29:41,530 and the presidents and stuff and then 2326 01:29:44,520 --> 01:29:42,939 there was this movement in sort of the 2327 01:29:46,679 --> 01:29:44,530 middle to late 20th century that said 2328 01:29:49,319 --> 01:29:46,689 well you know what are those people and 2329 01:29:50,609 --> 01:29:49,329 it really any more important than all of 2330 01:29:52,469 --> 01:29:50,619 the people that were underneath and we 2331 01:29:55,619 --> 01:29:52,479 also need to look at the shopkeepers and 2332 01:29:57,089 --> 01:29:55,629 the farmers and the ditch diggers and I 2333 01:29:58,439 --> 01:29:57,099 think in the history field they went too 2334 01:30:00,179 --> 01:29:58,449 far and they said well we're not gonna 2335 01:30:02,250 --> 01:30:00,189 look at the kings anymore but there's a 2336 01:30:04,679 --> 01:30:02,260 heavy middle ground where you know you 2337 01:30:06,599 --> 01:30:04,689 have to take into account everybody and 2338 01:30:08,099 --> 01:30:06,609 so this idea you know they're taking it 2339 01:30:10,919 --> 01:30:08,109 to your leader thing I think it's 2340 01:30:12,540 --> 01:30:10,929 manifestly absurd and so the idea that 2341 01:30:14,250 --> 01:30:12,550 the American government is courting all 2342 01:30:15,809 --> 01:30:14,260 these secrets because aliens landed at 2343 01:30:18,830 --> 01:30:15,819 Holloman Air Force Base or whatever and 2344 01:30:20,690 --> 01:30:18,840 said hello I think is equally absurd 2345 01:30:22,970 --> 01:30:20,700 that's just my take on it for what it's 2346 01:30:25,130 --> 01:30:22,980 worth yeah I could really bad I think 2347 01:30:26,750 --> 01:30:25,140 you know the when we kind of consider 2348 01:30:28,640 --> 01:30:26,760 the notion that aliens would come in and 2349 01:30:30,950 --> 01:30:28,650 speak to our leaders so to speak we 2350 01:30:33,980 --> 01:30:30,960 consider that purely because we use our 2351 01:30:36,950 --> 01:30:33,990 mindset to try and understand how they 2352 01:30:39,140 --> 01:30:36,960 would act instead of realizing that 2353 01:30:41,390 --> 01:30:39,150 they're truly alien you know Paul's 2354 01:30:42,590 --> 01:30:41,400 quite right we're all just six million 2355 01:30:44,480 --> 01:30:42,600 six billion people 2356 01:30:47,210 --> 01:30:44,490 nobody from over there fairly advanced 2357 01:30:49,190 --> 01:30:47,220 is gonna care we only think of it 2358 01:30:50,930 --> 01:30:49,200 because that's the way our minds work 2359 01:30:52,310 --> 01:30:50,940 well this is the president that's the 2360 01:30:53,930 --> 01:30:52,320 Prime Minister that's the king that's 2361 01:30:56,960 --> 01:30:53,940 the queen they're obviously going to 2362 01:30:59,590 --> 01:30:56,970 come down and meet them well why because 2363 01:31:02,890 --> 01:30:59,600 that's how we think and the problem is 2364 01:31:06,220 --> 01:31:02,900 ufology is caught up in that mindset of 2365 01:31:09,200 --> 01:31:06,230 having rigid ideas and belief systems 2366 01:31:11,000 --> 01:31:09,210 throughout ufology you know the aliens 2367 01:31:14,920 --> 01:31:11,010 crashed in 47 they're abducting people 2368 01:31:16,310 --> 01:31:14,930 because their race is on the biological 2369 01:31:18,650 --> 01:31:16,320 downside 2370 01:31:20,360 --> 01:31:18,660 you know there's dead aliens and crashed 2371 01:31:22,220 --> 01:31:20,370 UFOs at area 51 2372 01:31:25,220 --> 01:31:22,230 flying triangles are back engineered 2373 01:31:28,490 --> 01:31:25,230 UFOs etc etc goes on and they're not 2374 01:31:30,440 --> 01:31:28,500 theories anymore and ufology you know 2375 01:31:32,750 --> 01:31:30,450 uses this same approach of using the 2376 01:31:35,600 --> 01:31:32,760 logical way our brains work to try and 2377 01:31:37,940 --> 01:31:35,610 fit all this into a scenario and that's 2378 01:31:40,490 --> 01:31:37,950 all it is you know in the take me to 2379 01:31:42,230 --> 01:31:40,500 your leader idea it's a scenario but 2380 01:31:43,790 --> 01:31:42,240 it's the tower scenario because it's the 2381 01:31:45,740 --> 01:31:43,800 best we can come up with I wouldn't even 2382 01:31:46,820 --> 01:31:45,750 say it's the logical way I agree with 2383 01:31:48,530 --> 01:31:46,830 you but I wouldn't even say it's the 2384 01:31:50,660 --> 01:31:48,540 logical way our brains work I would say 2385 01:31:52,820 --> 01:31:50,670 perhaps it's the illogical way the 2386 01:31:55,610 --> 01:31:52,830 terribly limited way our brains look at 2387 01:31:58,850 --> 01:31:55,620 the universe we stuck it all into a 2388 01:32:00,770 --> 01:31:58,860 teeny tiny little box and you know maybe 2389 01:32:02,270 --> 01:32:00,780 what the aliens whatever they are are 2390 01:32:04,940 --> 01:32:02,280 saying hey you guys gonna crawl out of 2391 01:32:07,640 --> 01:32:04,950 the box and start thinking about things 2392 01:32:08,960 --> 01:32:07,650 in a different way and so when Greg says 2393 01:32:10,880 --> 01:32:08,970 you know maybe they're trying to lead us 2394 01:32:13,040 --> 01:32:10,890 to something maybe that's what they're 2395 01:32:14,810 --> 01:32:13,050 trying to lead us to which starts to 2396 01:32:16,340 --> 01:32:14,820 sound Greg let me throw this to you 2397 01:32:18,500 --> 01:32:16,350 because some people will criticize this 2398 01:32:20,930 --> 01:32:18,510 line of thought as being almost quasi 2399 01:32:22,880 --> 01:32:20,940 religious they you you guys have drifted 2400 01:32:25,130 --> 01:32:22,890 off the scientific reservation and 2401 01:32:26,930 --> 01:32:25,140 you're basically talking about religion 2402 01:32:29,270 --> 01:32:26,940 now you're no different than born-again 2403 01:32:31,100 --> 01:32:29,280 Christians or something this idea that 2404 01:32:32,750 --> 01:32:31,110 there's an intelligence that's 2405 01:32:34,130 --> 01:32:32,760 to lead us somewhere and they might not 2406 01:32:35,930 --> 01:32:34,140 be from Zeta Reticuli they might 2407 01:32:37,880 --> 01:32:35,940 actually be from here do you think maybe 2408 01:32:40,340 --> 01:32:37,890 we're drifting too far into faith-based 2409 01:32:43,310 --> 01:32:40,350 ufology Greg is that a concern that the 2410 01:32:47,000 --> 01:32:43,320 eth people often level it folks like us 2411 01:32:48,650 --> 01:32:47,010 well first off over the past few minutes 2412 01:32:50,750 --> 01:32:48,660 I've been thinking to be interesting on 2413 01:32:52,700 --> 01:32:50,760 the podcast to have an ETA sure and 2414 01:32:54,890 --> 01:32:52,710 somebody who's not an e th ER have a 2415 01:33:00,050 --> 01:32:54,900 debate and you would be the co-host on 2416 01:33:02,330 --> 01:33:00,060 that episode okay okay yeah well if 2417 01:33:06,860 --> 01:33:02,340 you've been in the UFO field for a while 2418 01:33:08,810 --> 01:33:06,870 and probably Jean knows this a lot of 2419 01:33:11,870 --> 01:33:08,820 the stuff people talk about starts to 2420 01:33:13,610 --> 01:33:11,880 sound sort of religious because you 2421 01:33:15,590 --> 01:33:13,620 start running into that you start 2422 01:33:17,210 --> 01:33:15,600 running into government stuff you start 2423 01:33:19,460 --> 01:33:17,220 running into psychology you start 2424 01:33:20,810 --> 01:33:19,470 running into spirituality and I don't 2425 01:33:22,730 --> 01:33:20,820 think there's any reason to shy away 2426 01:33:25,190 --> 01:33:22,740 from that because we're dealing with 2427 01:33:27,140 --> 01:33:25,200 people's with people you know with their 2428 01:33:30,020 --> 01:33:27,150 psychology with their belief systems 2429 01:33:33,080 --> 01:33:30,030 with whatever their wants and needs and 2430 01:33:35,210 --> 01:33:33,090 and cultural background is and if that 2431 01:33:37,400 --> 01:33:35,220 includes you know their spiritual 2432 01:33:38,570 --> 01:33:37,410 beliefs so be it the other thing I was 2433 01:33:40,940 --> 01:33:38,580 thinking when you're when you were 2434 01:33:44,000 --> 01:33:40,950 talking about we were talking about all 2435 01:33:46,580 --> 01:33:44,010 the whatever these entities are wherever 2436 01:33:48,260 --> 01:33:46,590 they come from and they didn't see any 2437 01:33:50,330 --> 01:33:48,270 you know they don't care who you know 2438 01:33:52,640 --> 01:33:50,340 what people's position is you know 2439 01:33:54,380 --> 01:33:52,650 that's a spiritual idea to that you know 2440 01:33:56,690 --> 01:33:54,390 there's no difference between my karl 2441 01:33:58,310 --> 01:33:56,700 rove and and a farmer from the BB a-- or 2442 01:34:00,140 --> 01:33:58,320 something they're both you know they're 2443 01:34:06,980 --> 01:34:00,150 in trouble now they think then i'll tell 2444 01:34:09,530 --> 01:34:06,990 you but a political viewpoint here let 2445 01:34:09,950 --> 01:34:09,540 me just zip it here sorry nothing that's 2446 01:34:11,660 --> 01:34:09,960 all right 2447 01:34:13,760 --> 01:34:11,670 they are in trouble if they think that i 2448 01:34:15,890 --> 01:34:13,770 suppose but the thing is what we've 2449 01:34:18,950 --> 01:34:15,900 learned about the UFO subject about 2450 01:34:21,800 --> 01:34:18,960 witnesses is that anybody can witness a 2451 01:34:24,980 --> 01:34:21,810 UFO it's not limited to an economic or 2452 01:34:28,460 --> 01:34:24,990 social or even by country or nationality 2453 01:34:30,980 --> 01:34:28,470 or anything and so i think that if there 2454 01:34:34,100 --> 01:34:30,990 is an intelligence which i think there 2455 01:34:36,770 --> 01:34:34,110 is behind that behind the paranormal 2456 01:34:39,320 --> 01:34:36,780 behind the UFO subject it's so 2457 01:34:41,960 --> 01:34:39,330 democratic it's it's almost out of our 2458 01:34:43,850 --> 01:34:41,970 of belief of how democratic it is and 2459 01:34:45,920 --> 01:34:43,860 I'm not saying that to be you know 2460 01:34:47,780 --> 01:34:45,930 political or that I'm a Democrat or 2461 01:34:49,670 --> 01:34:47,790 anything like that but just to use the 2462 01:34:51,890 --> 01:34:49,680 word that's if they want to contact 2463 01:34:55,640 --> 01:34:51,900 somebody everybody is fair game 2464 01:34:58,100 --> 01:34:55,650 yeah small D Democratic Big D yes yeah 2465 01:35:01,720 --> 01:34:58,110 okay so Charles Fort says we're property 2466 01:35:04,280 --> 01:35:01,730 so say the crypto surest fuels seated us 2467 01:35:06,980 --> 01:35:04,290 nurtured us whatever whatever and 2468 01:35:08,900 --> 01:35:06,990 they're leading us on a path which is 2469 01:35:10,670 --> 01:35:08,910 why flying saucers are here to make us 2470 01:35:12,980 --> 01:35:10,680 think you see where I'm going with this 2471 01:35:14,930 --> 01:35:12,990 yeah I think so I think they're I think 2472 01:35:18,470 --> 01:35:14,940 we're also helping ourselves by buying 2473 01:35:20,270 --> 01:35:18,480 into that hits something worth taking a 2474 01:35:23,840 --> 01:35:20,280 look at does that make sense 2475 01:35:26,060 --> 01:35:23,850 works for me Nick I think you know just 2476 01:35:27,650 --> 01:35:26,070 to go back to to Paul's point about you 2477 01:35:29,360 --> 01:35:27,660 know when about drifting towards a 2478 01:35:31,850 --> 01:35:29,370 religion and you know are we any 2479 01:35:33,380 --> 01:35:31,860 different to a preacher I actually think 2480 01:35:35,780 --> 01:35:33,390 we are I think we're the exact opposite 2481 01:35:38,750 --> 01:35:35,790 because a preacher whatever his or her 2482 01:35:41,510 --> 01:35:38,760 religion is their role basically is to 2483 01:35:44,510 --> 01:35:41,520 uphold that belief system whereas we're 2484 01:35:46,100 --> 01:35:44,520 I think are questioning belief systems 2485 01:35:49,070 --> 01:35:46,110 we're not denying the existence of 2486 01:35:51,620 --> 01:35:49,080 something but we're not hammering home 2487 01:35:53,300 --> 01:35:51,630 you know the idea that it's this or it's 2488 01:35:56,390 --> 01:35:53,310 vast and I think that's the important 2489 01:35:58,610 --> 01:35:56,400 point that a lot of people new fala G 2490 01:36:01,250 --> 01:35:58,620 you understand better than anybody else 2491 01:36:03,620 --> 01:36:01,260 is I'm certainly not but I I do hope 2492 01:36:05,570 --> 01:36:03,630 that I have an open mind rather than a 2493 01:36:07,700 --> 01:36:05,580 mind has always have already reached a 2494 01:36:09,770 --> 01:36:07,710 conclusion and that he's determined to 2495 01:36:11,870 --> 01:36:09,780 uphold it comes high water or whatever 2496 01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:11,880 you know I think I think this is the 2497 01:36:15,290 --> 01:36:13,890 important thing that you followed there 2498 01:36:17,330 --> 01:36:15,300 is an island for saying that certain 2499 01:36:21,230 --> 01:36:17,340 aspects of ufology do spill over into 2500 01:36:23,750 --> 01:36:21,240 religion in terms of the approach but it 2501 01:36:27,350 --> 01:36:23,760 is very much based around upholding 2502 01:36:28,940 --> 01:36:27,360 belief systems etc and I think I think 2503 01:36:31,190 --> 01:36:28,950 there are people in ufology do that 2504 01:36:32,780 --> 01:36:31,200 consciously or otherwise but I would 2505 01:36:35,570 --> 01:36:32,790 hope that more people would come around 2506 01:36:37,940 --> 01:36:35,580 to the idea eventually that we can look 2507 01:36:40,490 --> 01:36:37,950 at the idea as I do believe that there's 2508 01:36:43,330 --> 01:36:40,500 a genuine phenomenon without having to 2509 01:36:47,550 --> 01:36:43,340 you know hammer home the point that it's 2510 01:36:49,110 --> 01:36:47,560 its explanation a B or C etc yeah 2511 01:36:50,750 --> 01:36:49,120 problems oh isn't that a problem though 2512 01:36:53,640 --> 01:36:50,760 that we want the Reader's Digest 2513 01:36:56,700 --> 01:36:53,650 explanation we want the few pithy 2514 01:36:58,140 --> 01:36:56,710 paragraphs that simply summarize the 2515 01:37:00,270 --> 01:36:58,150 entire thing and when you say you know 2516 01:37:02,430 --> 01:37:00,280 what we're only at the beginning of the 2517 01:37:04,470 --> 01:37:02,440 research not the end we don't know 2518 01:37:06,660 --> 01:37:04,480 what's going on yet we only have a faint 2519 01:37:08,520 --> 01:37:06,670 glimmer of hope to figure it out yeah I 2520 01:37:11,370 --> 01:37:08,530 mean that's a valid point there are 2521 01:37:14,160 --> 01:37:11,380 people one answers and for India follow 2522 01:37:15,930 --> 01:37:14,170 gee people wants reissue and soul so 2523 01:37:17,970 --> 01:37:15,940 that you know all the aliens need to 2524 01:37:19,860 --> 01:37:17,980 help us a lot of people want that you 2525 01:37:22,310 --> 01:37:19,870 know as somebody mentioned there is the 2526 01:37:25,530 --> 01:37:22,320 idea of you followed your most kind of 2527 01:37:28,410 --> 01:37:25,540 unconsciously replacing old-time 2528 01:37:30,090 --> 01:37:28,420 religion you know I understand that for 2529 01:37:33,360 --> 01:37:30,100 some people in their lives they need 2530 01:37:35,070 --> 01:37:33,370 meaning you know I kind you know I don't 2531 01:37:37,410 --> 01:37:35,080 know if there's a life after death I 2532 01:37:40,050 --> 01:37:37,420 don't dwell on it I don't think about it 2533 01:37:41,790 --> 01:37:40,060 that much but there are people who do my 2534 01:37:44,300 --> 01:37:41,800 view is I've got 70 or 80 years 2535 01:37:46,650 --> 01:37:44,310 hopefully what happens afterwards 2536 01:37:49,110 --> 01:37:46,660 happens or it doesn't I'm not going to 2537 01:37:52,110 --> 01:37:49,120 dwell on it but when you begin to dwell 2538 01:37:55,140 --> 01:37:52,120 on a subject and you want it to kind of 2539 01:37:57,440 --> 01:37:55,150 have a meaning in your life to me you as 2540 01:38:00,000 --> 01:37:57,450 I said earlier you've kind of lost all 2541 01:38:01,770 --> 01:38:00,010 direction and people might think that 2542 01:38:04,590 --> 01:38:01,780 sounds sort of cold-hearted but it is 2543 01:38:06,540 --> 01:38:04,600 and it's just you know we dwell on 2544 01:38:09,150 --> 01:38:06,550 things because as human beings we 2545 01:38:11,970 --> 01:38:09,160 understand mortality and death 2546 01:38:14,250 --> 01:38:11,980 you know you pet dog all he once used to 2547 01:38:16,140 --> 01:38:14,260 be stroke fed patted take him for a walk 2548 01:38:17,520 --> 01:38:16,150 he loves his life he doesn't have that 2549 01:38:20,040 --> 01:38:17,530 concept that one day it's all going to 2550 01:38:22,650 --> 01:38:20,050 be over so he doesn't worry about higher 2551 01:38:24,660 --> 01:38:22,660 entities coming down to save him we do 2552 01:38:27,390 --> 01:38:24,670 because we know one day we'll be over 2553 01:38:30,350 --> 01:38:27,400 and I think ufology is like a comfort 2554 01:38:32,880 --> 01:38:30,360 zone for people who are not necessarily 2555 01:38:35,130 --> 01:38:32,890 insured with mainstream religion but 2556 01:38:38,160 --> 01:38:35,140 equally because we're human beings they 2557 01:38:40,560 --> 01:38:38,170 want something and for them hichy 2558 01:38:43,080 --> 01:38:40,570 apology I wouldn't use and you're quite 2559 01:38:44,760 --> 01:38:43,090 right Nick the term religion which I I 2560 01:38:46,850 --> 01:38:44,770 don't abort the term adjust aboard the 2561 01:38:49,050 --> 01:38:46,860 practice the formalized sort of 2562 01:38:52,710 --> 01:38:49,060 codification of spiritual beliefs I 2563 01:38:55,110 --> 01:38:52,720 would use the term spiritualistic more 2564 01:38:58,140 --> 01:38:55,120 mystical there's a within all faiths 2565 01:39:00,390 --> 01:38:58,150 there's a mystical trend that often gets 2566 01:39:02,730 --> 01:39:00,400 squashed by the mainstream churches 2567 01:39:06,680 --> 01:39:02,740 and you know it's funny your blog you 2568 01:39:10,590 --> 01:39:06,690 and Greg and 85 other people now this is 2569 01:39:13,080 --> 01:39:10,600 known as as UFO your gang is increased 2570 01:39:15,030 --> 01:39:13,090 it's known as UFO mystic and I think 2571 01:39:16,500 --> 01:39:15,040 that I don't know why Craig or whomever 2572 01:39:18,150 --> 01:39:16,510 came up with that term but I think that 2573 01:39:20,280 --> 01:39:18,160 touches in using the religious 2574 01:39:21,990 --> 01:39:20,290 faith-based thing it touches into the 2575 01:39:25,650 --> 01:39:22,000 fact that way you guys do when you write 2576 01:39:28,830 --> 01:39:25,660 if you view ufology as in some sense of 2577 01:39:31,020 --> 01:39:28,840 religion but also in some sense say call 2578 01:39:33,000 --> 01:39:31,030 it a spiritual or request or whatever 2579 01:39:35,370 --> 01:39:33,010 you guys are more in the spiritual quest 2580 01:39:37,140 --> 01:39:35,380 end of it where you're asking questions 2581 01:39:38,760 --> 01:39:37,150 you're out there you're mystics it 2582 01:39:40,320 --> 01:39:38,770 happens to be in the UFO field as 2583 01:39:43,380 --> 01:39:40,330 opposed to religion but whatever or 2584 01:39:46,230 --> 01:39:43,390 faith and that exists in almost every 2585 01:39:47,900 --> 01:39:46,240 inquiry of humans looking into something 2586 01:39:50,370 --> 01:39:47,910 that we don't understand certainly was 2587 01:39:52,260 --> 01:39:50,380 spirituality or faith there are mystics 2588 01:39:55,440 --> 01:39:52,270 William James all Abunda Henry Allen was 2589 01:39:57,150 --> 01:39:55,450 one Jesus himself one would say was was 2590 01:39:58,980 --> 01:39:57,160 very mystical and then there's the 2591 01:40:02,670 --> 01:39:58,990 people who come along and insist on 2592 01:40:05,070 --> 01:40:02,680 taking that mysticism that wonder that 2593 01:40:07,740 --> 01:40:05,080 questioning and taking everything 2594 01:40:09,630 --> 01:40:07,750 special out of it they you know like 2595 01:40:11,460 --> 01:40:09,640 sticking a pin in it draining the 2596 01:40:14,010 --> 01:40:11,470 lifeblood out of it and then leaving it 2597 01:40:15,570 --> 01:40:14,020 cold dark gray HUS and oh okay that's 2598 01:40:15,810 --> 01:40:15,580 what we've got because we can control 2599 01:40:20,910 --> 01:40:15,820 that 2600 01:40:23,760 --> 01:40:20,920 now you're right I know everybody's 2601 01:40:25,860 --> 01:40:23,770 right we're all perfect and we have to 2602 01:40:27,480 --> 01:40:25,870 say nothing more because that's it I 2603 01:40:30,390 --> 01:40:27,490 think the problem is in any of these 2604 01:40:32,880 --> 01:40:30,400 things any of these pursuits if you want 2605 01:40:34,620 --> 01:40:32,890 to get down to brass tacks I suppose and 2606 01:40:36,960 --> 01:40:34,630 have written about this and so isn't it 2607 01:40:39,480 --> 01:40:36,970 these fundamentalist thinking the belief 2608 01:40:41,190 --> 01:40:39,490 based thinking which stops you looking 2609 01:40:44,550 --> 01:40:41,200 at other things what could be more 2610 01:40:46,980 --> 01:40:44,560 boring than to be stuck in one type of 2611 01:40:48,450 --> 01:40:46,990 thought process in one belief system and 2612 01:40:50,340 --> 01:40:48,460 then sit there in defended against all 2613 01:40:51,090 --> 01:40:50,350 people who you know once in a while have 2614 01:40:54,410 --> 01:40:51,100 a good point 2615 01:40:58,260 --> 01:40:54,420 I think that's boring and it's also it's 2616 01:41:01,950 --> 01:40:58,270 cowardly to me to so I will die 2617 01:41:05,070 --> 01:41:01,960 distinguished skeptics in the UFO field 2618 01:41:06,810 --> 01:41:05,080 in any other field by two terms skeptic 2619 01:41:08,760 --> 01:41:06,820 which is somebody that doesn't believe 2620 01:41:10,290 --> 01:41:08,770 anything without proper 2621 01:41:11,790 --> 01:41:10,300 to back it up and a fundamentalist 2622 01:41:13,290 --> 01:41:11,800 skeptic who won't believe anything no 2623 01:41:15,450 --> 01:41:13,300 matter how much evidence you show them 2624 01:41:17,130 --> 01:41:15,460 yeah I think one of the most important 2625 01:41:20,520 --> 01:41:17,140 things to and I swear this is the last 2626 01:41:22,890 --> 01:41:20,530 thing I'll read from Mack's book but I 2627 01:41:25,580 --> 01:41:22,900 want people to why I'm doing this is I 2628 01:41:27,510 --> 01:41:25,590 want them to hear what he wrote and 2629 01:41:30,180 --> 01:41:27,520 understand that there are very few 2630 01:41:33,030 --> 01:41:30,190 people writing in the UFO field or the 2631 01:41:36,210 --> 01:41:33,040 paranormal field in general then also at 2632 01:41:37,830 --> 01:41:36,220 a facility with language that Mac had so 2633 01:41:39,780 --> 01:41:37,840 many UFO books no matter how much 2634 01:41:43,200 --> 01:41:39,790 information they might impart are so 2635 01:41:44,880 --> 01:41:43,210 deadly really dull in terms of their 2636 01:41:47,550 --> 01:41:44,890 language you two guys are you know 2637 01:41:50,940 --> 01:41:47,560 wonderful exceptions 2638 01:41:52,260 --> 01:41:50,950 yes why so but even beyond what Greg 2639 01:41:53,910 --> 01:41:52,270 would write or what Nick would write I 2640 01:41:56,730 --> 01:41:53,920 mean Mac just had a facility with 2641 01:41:57,780 --> 01:41:56,740 language that was special and I think it 2642 01:42:00,180 --> 01:41:57,790 bled through him into his science 2643 01:42:01,920 --> 01:42:00,190 fiction writing to the unique and that's 2644 01:42:03,930 --> 01:42:01,930 what we'll miss and here's here's this 2645 01:42:06,180 --> 01:42:03,940 final comment in the book he leaves the 2646 01:42:08,340 --> 01:42:06,190 crypto terrestrials behind and he goes 2647 01:42:10,530 --> 01:42:08,350 back to talking about us and I think a 2648 01:42:13,260 --> 01:42:10,540 lot of what Mack's thinking on all of 2649 01:42:15,180 --> 01:42:13,270 this was that we see in the UFO 2650 01:42:18,840 --> 01:42:15,190 phenomenon a mirror of ourselves 2651 01:42:20,550 --> 01:42:18,850 perhaps it says this much about us as it 2652 01:42:22,110 --> 01:42:20,560 says about whatever they are so here's 2653 01:42:23,940 --> 01:42:22,120 what he wrote he said although I harbor 2654 01:42:25,980 --> 01:42:23,950 serious reservations about humanity's 2655 01:42:28,680 --> 01:42:25,990 ability to make the evolutionary cut I'm 2656 01:42:30,510 --> 01:42:28,690 not without hope I sense great things in 2657 01:42:32,580 --> 01:42:30,520 the making I enjoy experiencing this 2658 01:42:35,220 --> 01:42:32,590 dire ever-accelerating point in our 2659 01:42:37,620 --> 01:42:35,230 species history our potential is genuine 2660 01:42:39,690 --> 01:42:37,630 cosmic citizens challenges the 2661 01:42:42,360 --> 01:42:39,700 imagination and stretches conceptual 2662 01:42:44,730 --> 01:42:42,370 boundaries to dizzy extremes I'm willing 2663 01:42:45,660 --> 01:42:44,740 to embrace transcendence or endurance 2664 01:42:47,760 --> 01:42:45,670 extinction 2665 01:42:50,190 --> 01:42:47,770 I must perpetually concede either 2666 01:42:52,410 --> 01:42:50,200 possibility no matter how dramatically 2667 01:42:54,930 --> 01:42:52,420 different regardless of how exciting or 2668 01:42:57,750 --> 01:42:54,940 dismal I walk a fine existential edge 2669 01:43:00,210 --> 01:42:57,760 fearing and cherishing enlivened by a 2670 01:43:02,670 --> 01:43:00,220 vertiginous sense of astonishment and 2671 01:43:03,960 --> 01:43:02,680 horror and I would say that there's no 2672 01:43:05,850 --> 01:43:03,970 better way of looking at the UFO 2673 01:43:07,020 --> 01:43:05,860 phenomenon than those he wasn't 2674 01:43:08,730 --> 01:43:07,030 specifically writing about you follow 2675 01:43:12,720 --> 01:43:08,740 gee but the UFO phenomena those two 2676 01:43:14,550 --> 01:43:12,730 paragraphs existential you know the idea 2677 01:43:16,710 --> 01:43:14,560 of you're looking at it in both horror 2678 01:43:19,860 --> 01:43:16,720 but also fascination a mystery all of 2679 01:43:20,640 --> 01:43:19,870 that stuff I think he said because he 2680 01:43:22,590 --> 01:43:20,650 really was 2681 01:43:24,630 --> 01:43:22,600 somebody who was capable of exciting 2682 01:43:25,980 --> 01:43:24,640 people's imagination again I would I 2683 01:43:28,110 --> 01:43:25,990 would call him tell me if you think I'm 2684 01:43:29,490 --> 01:43:28,120 wrong guys the Carl Sagan if you follow 2685 01:43:31,970 --> 01:43:29,500 gee in the sense that he could 2686 01:43:34,260 --> 01:43:31,980 popularize it and also at the same time 2687 01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:34,270 so make it accessible but also at the 2688 01:43:48,280 --> 01:43:45,129 [Music] 2689 01:43:50,800 --> 01:43:48,290 for 58 years fate has provided true 2690 01:43:53,169 --> 01:43:50,810 reports of the strange and unknown fate 2691 01:43:55,060 --> 01:43:53,179 brings you the latest in all aspects of 2692 01:43:58,600 --> 01:43:55,070 the paranormal like angels and miracles 2693 01:44:01,209 --> 01:43:58,610 psychic phenomena ghosts UFOs and much 2694 01:44:03,939 --> 01:44:01,219 much more to receive your complimentary 2695 01:44:07,510 --> 01:44:03,949 fate magazine call now at one eight 2696 01:44:15,479 --> 01:44:07,520 hundred seven two eight two seven three 2697 01:44:25,900 --> 01:44:22,899 Ruiz ero or WWF a TEM AG comm what are 2698 01:44:41,580 --> 01:44:25,910 you waiting for your fate awaits 2699 01:44:58,490 --> 01:44:49,320 [Music] 2700 01:45:02,850 --> 01:45:00,780 we're talking about the crypto to rest 2701 01:45:05,250 --> 01:45:02,860 just by Mac Tony's our co-host Paul 2702 01:45:08,010 --> 01:45:05,260 Campbell Nicholas Redfern Greg Bishop 2703 01:45:12,990 --> 01:45:08,020 are here to help guys your thoughts 2704 01:45:16,080 --> 01:45:13,000 about what Paul just read and said the 2705 01:45:18,090 --> 01:45:16,090 one phrase besides the what Paul just 2706 01:45:20,610 --> 01:45:18,100 read the one phrase it sticks with me 2707 01:45:22,650 --> 01:45:20,620 and which is kind of distilled 2708 01:45:25,530 --> 01:45:22,660 everything that I've been looking at 2709 01:45:28,200 --> 01:45:25,540 since I started really seriously looking 2710 01:45:29,610 --> 01:45:28,210 at the that the paranormal was a phrase 2711 01:45:31,620 --> 01:45:29,620 he came up with somewhere in the middle 2712 01:45:35,340 --> 01:45:31,630 of the book called recreational paranoia 2713 01:45:38,970 --> 01:45:35,350 which is a wonderful phrase which means 2714 01:45:41,340 --> 01:45:38,980 to me it means don't be afraid you can 2715 01:45:44,630 --> 01:45:41,350 be afraid but don't be afraid to think 2716 01:45:47,580 --> 01:45:44,640 differently or look at something new or 2717 01:45:49,110 --> 01:45:47,590 feel threatened by something whether on 2718 01:45:51,450 --> 01:45:49,120 a personal level or an intellectual 2719 01:45:54,090 --> 01:45:51,460 level when you're looking for answers 2720 01:45:56,820 --> 01:45:54,100 and that's you know in in a nutshell 2721 01:45:58,500 --> 01:45:56,830 that's the I think that's a proper 2722 01:46:01,170 --> 01:45:58,510 attitude a brave attitude a courageous 2723 01:46:02,190 --> 01:46:01,180 attitude you know have fun with it yeah 2724 01:46:04,110 --> 01:46:02,200 you're gonna it's like being on a 2725 01:46:05,700 --> 01:46:04,120 carnival ride things are going to come 2726 01:46:07,260 --> 01:46:05,710 at you you're gonna go or you know go 2727 01:46:10,050 --> 01:46:07,270 over Hills you're gonna fall off things 2728 01:46:12,209 --> 01:46:10,060 but if you trust yourself and you trust 2729 01:46:14,760 --> 01:46:12,219 your own thinking process and not other 2730 01:46:16,860 --> 01:46:14,770 people's I think you'll find maybe not 2731 01:46:19,500 --> 01:46:16,870 the answer to the UFO question but some 2732 01:46:21,540 --> 01:46:19,510 answers about yourself and I think I 2733 01:46:24,360 --> 01:46:21,550 talked about that with Mack quite a lot 2734 01:46:26,520 --> 01:46:24,370 and he agreed with me on it 2735 01:46:30,030 --> 01:46:26,530 the search for answers it's more like a 2736 01:46:31,500 --> 01:46:30,040 journey and more like a putting yourself 2737 01:46:33,030 --> 01:46:31,510 through a different school not the 2738 01:46:34,709 --> 01:46:33,040 school that you go to classes and pay 2739 01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:34,719 for and all that well I guess you do pay 2740 01:46:39,330 --> 01:46:36,250 for books and conferences and all that 2741 01:46:40,830 --> 01:46:39,340 but it's a personal journey and there's 2742 01:46:42,900 --> 01:46:40,840 there's a lot of rewards there if you 2743 01:46:45,060 --> 01:46:42,910 don't allow yourself to be stuck 2744 01:46:50,400 --> 01:46:45,070 anywhere the journey is its own reward 2745 01:46:53,580 --> 01:46:50,410 Nick exactly yeah what Greg said oh this 2746 01:46:55,800 --> 01:46:53,590 is so easy for us thanks Joe no I 2747 01:46:58,080 --> 01:46:55,810 actually you know Greg make some good 2748 01:46:59,910 --> 01:46:58,090 points and I think I think part of the 2749 01:47:02,130 --> 01:46:59,920 search of the truth about the UFO 2750 01:47:04,650 --> 01:47:02,140 mystery is the fact that we are almost 2751 01:47:07,260 --> 01:47:04,660 put on a quest to find the truth and 2752 01:47:08,940 --> 01:47:07,270 that also kind of touches upon block you 2753 01:47:11,609 --> 01:47:08,950 know Paul talks about religion you know 2754 01:47:13,410 --> 01:47:11,619 the idea of finding something 2755 01:47:15,629 --> 01:47:13,420 and coming to a conclusion or a belief 2756 01:47:18,810 --> 01:47:15,639 system I think that you know there's 2757 01:47:21,330 --> 01:47:18,820 Greg Greg made some good valid points 2758 01:47:24,660 --> 01:47:21,340 based on you know max writings and I 2759 01:47:27,450 --> 01:47:24,670 think if nothing else the fact the sad 2760 01:47:29,580 --> 01:47:27,460 fact that this has to be max final work 2761 01:47:32,760 --> 01:47:29,590 I think you know he's left us with a 2762 01:47:35,609 --> 01:47:32,770 body of work where we can you know talk 2763 01:47:36,930 --> 01:47:35,619 on a two hour radio show and barely 2764 01:47:39,899 --> 01:47:36,940 scratch the surface 2765 01:47:41,250 --> 01:47:39,909 you know most books or whatever you can 2766 01:47:43,620 --> 01:47:41,260 wrap them up in a narrow self 2767 01:47:45,600 --> 01:47:43,630 conversation Mack offered so many 2768 01:47:48,060 --> 01:47:45,610 different theories of the things we've 2769 01:47:51,240 --> 01:47:48,070 discussed tonight that you just don't 2770 01:47:54,209 --> 01:47:51,250 get within mainstream ufology because 2771 01:47:57,859 --> 01:47:54,219 mainstream ufology is so compact 2772 01:48:00,930 --> 01:47:57,869 so compacted into you know one or two 2773 01:48:04,229 --> 01:48:00,940 theories and ideas and and frameworks 2774 01:48:07,109 --> 01:48:04,239 and you know the LA poll said with max 2775 01:48:10,200 --> 01:48:07,119 writing you know he was so descriptive 2776 01:48:13,410 --> 01:48:10,210 and so you know brilliant in his writing 2777 01:48:16,339 --> 01:48:13,420 style he was just able to present me 2778 01:48:18,540 --> 01:48:16,349 hundred pages you know something that 2779 01:48:19,740 --> 01:48:18,550 some people would take a lifetime to 2780 01:48:22,080 --> 01:48:19,750 write and you know particularly those 2781 01:48:25,020 --> 01:48:22,090 last paragraphs as well you know there 2782 01:48:26,879 --> 01:48:25,030 it was sort of bordering on or you could 2783 01:48:29,280 --> 01:48:26,889 really say about the phenomenon that's 2784 01:48:30,390 --> 01:48:29,290 you know hadn't been said before do you 2785 01:48:33,000 --> 01:48:30,400 think that maybe in putting this 2786 01:48:35,040 --> 01:48:33,010 together this book he knew innately that 2787 01:48:38,640 --> 01:48:35,050 he didn't have much time left I always 2788 01:48:41,040 --> 01:48:38,650 think that people do know when their 2789 01:48:42,450 --> 01:48:41,050 time is coming I think just going back 2790 01:48:42,839 --> 01:48:42,460 to something and maybe has nothing to do 2791 01:48:47,669 --> 01:48:42,849 with it 2792 01:48:50,189 --> 01:48:47,679 day before my birthday back in 1988 my 2793 01:48:51,780 --> 01:48:50,199 father calls me and he would talk 2794 01:48:53,570 --> 01:48:51,790 frequently but maybe only for a few 2795 01:48:56,250 --> 01:48:53,580 minutes and then he spent more time 2796 01:48:58,740 --> 01:48:56,260 trying to express his thoughts the next 2797 01:49:01,229 --> 01:48:58,750 day he died so he kind of wondered when 2798 01:49:03,000 --> 01:49:01,239 Mac was putting this together maybe the 2799 01:49:05,790 --> 01:49:03,010 message and a li says you know Mac 2800 01:49:09,330 --> 01:49:05,800 you're gonna be leaving soon you've got 2801 01:49:12,050 --> 01:49:09,340 to get this down pat now I you know that 2802 01:49:15,590 --> 01:49:12,060 that's sort of a romantic notion 2803 01:49:18,050 --> 01:49:15,600 I think not only because I know that Mac 2804 01:49:20,750 --> 01:49:18,060 and I and I'm sure maybe Greg and Nick 2805 01:49:22,520 --> 01:49:20,760 too but I had talked to Mac we were 2806 01:49:24,500 --> 01:49:22,530 working on a science fiction screenplay 2807 01:49:26,810 --> 01:49:24,510 based on the play that we had co-written 2808 01:49:28,910 --> 01:49:26,820 which hopefully will be going in 2809 01:49:30,470 --> 01:49:28,920 production this year so max final work 2810 01:49:32,660 --> 01:49:30,480 might not be the Krypton terrestrials 2811 01:49:34,430 --> 01:49:32,670 I'm kind of hoping that it's this film 2812 01:49:36,020 --> 01:49:34,440 that we'll do and then he has a lot of 2813 01:49:38,090 --> 01:49:36,030 you know short stories and stuff that I 2814 01:49:40,280 --> 01:49:38,100 think will be a rich vein for 2815 01:49:42,470 --> 01:49:40,290 screenwriters and other people too to 2816 01:49:44,180 --> 01:49:42,480 take up the years to come but he was 2817 01:49:46,640 --> 01:49:44,190 talking at least to me about 2818 01:49:48,950 --> 01:49:46,650 collaborating on other projects and the 2819 01:49:51,290 --> 01:49:48,960 crypto terrestrials was a was a stop an 2820 01:49:53,660 --> 01:49:51,300 important stop on his own road his own 2821 01:49:56,780 --> 01:49:53,670 journey and Greg hit it exactly right 2822 01:49:59,180 --> 01:49:56,790 Mac was all about and this is why I you 2823 01:50:01,160 --> 01:49:59,190 know he and I got along so well and we 2824 01:50:02,750 --> 01:50:01,170 all get along so well you know it's not 2825 01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:02,760 about the destination it's about the 2826 01:50:08,390 --> 01:50:05,010 journey and it sounds trite and cliché 2827 01:50:10,760 --> 01:50:08,400 but it's true and he I don't think he 2828 01:50:13,580 --> 01:50:10,770 thought he was anywhere near the end of 2829 01:50:15,320 --> 01:50:13,590 his journey and so that's me that's the 2830 01:50:17,180 --> 01:50:15,330 tragedy and I think he can see that in 2831 01:50:18,950 --> 01:50:17,190 the book Jean as he pointed out he had 2832 01:50:20,450 --> 01:50:18,960 more that I think if he had lives 2833 01:50:22,610 --> 01:50:20,460 the book would have taken longer but 2834 01:50:24,680 --> 01:50:22,620 there were many other things that he 2835 01:50:26,540 --> 01:50:24,690 would have put in it as well so yeah I 2836 01:50:28,790 --> 01:50:26,550 don't think so I don't think he saw the 2837 01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:28,800 end coming at all in ten minutes or less 2838 01:50:32,060 --> 01:50:31,170 maybe defy where we're going or where we 2839 01:50:34,190 --> 01:50:32,070 could go from here 2840 01:50:36,440 --> 01:50:34,200 and by the way neighbors we are going to 2841 01:50:38,510 --> 01:50:36,450 do more shows about Mac Tony's the 2842 01:50:41,390 --> 01:50:38,520 crypto to rest shows that doesn't end 2843 01:50:45,080 --> 01:50:41,400 here either okay seeing where we are now 2844 01:50:47,420 --> 01:50:45,090 we're living in a sea of ETH how do we 2845 01:50:49,670 --> 01:50:47,430 help people think about other 2846 01:50:54,860 --> 01:50:49,680 possibilities we always call on Greg 2847 01:50:57,560 --> 01:50:54,870 first so go ahead think yeah I think the 2848 01:51:00,260 --> 01:50:57,570 way to do it is doing exactly what what 2849 01:51:02,960 --> 01:51:00,270 we're doing right now is just popularize 2850 01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:02,970 the idea in the best way we know how by 2851 01:51:08,990 --> 01:51:06,210 or using our vehicle or our you know 2852 01:51:11,780 --> 01:51:09,000 whatever our tool is follow this film 2853 01:51:14,480 --> 01:51:11,790 Nick and I write and you do the you do 2854 01:51:16,520 --> 01:51:14,490 the podcast I do one too but that's the 2855 01:51:18,470 --> 01:51:16,530 best way to do it I mean I mean it's not 2856 01:51:19,490 --> 01:51:18,480 my style to show things down people's 2857 01:51:21,350 --> 01:51:19,500 throats I present 2858 01:51:23,450 --> 01:51:21,360 what I think and then wait for people to 2859 01:51:25,040 --> 01:51:23,460 react I don't want to carry a flag 2860 01:51:26,630 --> 01:51:25,050 unfortunately the people that do carry a 2861 01:51:28,340 --> 01:51:26,640 flag get a lot more people listening to 2862 01:51:30,500 --> 01:51:28,350 them if that's not the way I do it 2863 01:51:32,900 --> 01:51:30,510 that's not the way anybody here does it 2864 01:51:35,090 --> 01:51:32,910 so I think just popularizing his ideas 2865 01:51:37,880 --> 01:51:35,100 bringing them up I've actually brought 2866 01:51:39,710 --> 01:51:37,890 up I played a clip of Mac at talks I've 2867 01:51:41,630 --> 01:51:39,720 given and you know two or three people 2868 01:51:43,130 --> 01:51:41,640 the audience go home hey and they come 2869 01:51:44,900 --> 01:51:43,140 up to me afterwards and talk about it 2870 01:51:47,390 --> 01:51:44,910 and you know and I think that's how it 2871 01:51:50,510 --> 01:51:47,400 works you get a few people talking about 2872 01:51:52,760 --> 01:51:50,520 it and you would hope at some point that 2873 01:51:54,320 --> 01:51:52,770 turns into more of a flood in the Natur 2874 01:51:56,600 --> 01:51:54,330 'but i don't know if it'll happen with 2875 01:51:58,940 --> 01:51:56,610 max max book i would hope that it does 2876 01:52:00,890 --> 01:51:58,950 but i am said before that if there's 2877 01:52:02,630 --> 01:52:00,900 gonna be a change in the UFO phenomena 2878 01:52:04,490 --> 01:52:02,640 the way we look at it it's not going to 2879 01:52:06,860 --> 01:52:04,500 come from the UFO people it's going to 2880 01:52:10,010 --> 01:52:06,870 come from a field of study outside of 2881 01:52:11,780 --> 01:52:10,020 ufology whatever that is and i think at 2882 01:52:14,150 --> 01:52:11,790 that point a lot of the things that mac 2883 01:52:15,800 --> 01:52:14,160 wrote about will have a lot more 2884 01:52:19,930 --> 01:52:15,810 relevance and maybe that's why i said 2885 01:52:22,940 --> 01:52:19,940 that the book will be heralded you know 2886 01:52:25,910 --> 01:52:22,950 may a whole not long but after it's time 2887 01:52:28,550 --> 01:52:25,920 okay yeah I think we with what Greg said 2888 01:52:31,220 --> 01:52:28,560 what I would add to that is that you 2889 01:52:33,680 --> 01:52:31,230 know one of the problems with not 2890 01:52:35,900 --> 01:52:33,690 necessarily having people believe what 2891 01:52:37,940 --> 01:52:35,910 Mad Max dear I don't think Mac would 2892 01:52:39,860 --> 01:52:37,950 want that I think max once wanted the 2893 01:52:42,260 --> 01:52:39,870 UFO community to be open-minded to 2894 01:52:45,770 --> 01:52:42,270 different scenarios but the big problem 2895 01:52:47,720 --> 01:52:45,780 we face in getting the UFO community to 2896 01:52:52,250 --> 01:52:47,730 be open-minded to something other than 2897 01:52:54,410 --> 01:52:52,260 the ATH is the problem that you know you 2898 01:52:56,960 --> 01:52:54,420 follow G is very much like a closed 2899 01:52:59,030 --> 01:52:56,970 group of people yeah there's a lot of 2900 01:53:01,250 --> 01:52:59,040 people read UFO magazine and attend 2901 01:53:03,290 --> 01:53:01,260 conferences but in terms of the people 2902 01:53:05,930 --> 01:53:03,300 who do the research the writing and who 2903 01:53:08,960 --> 01:53:05,940 you might call prime movers they are 2904 01:53:12,410 --> 01:53:08,970 rigidly stuck not just in the a th but 2905 01:53:13,820 --> 01:53:12,420 it's kind of like this safe mode where I 2906 01:53:15,700 --> 01:53:13,830 mean I'll give you a good example when I 2907 01:53:18,230 --> 01:53:15,710 wrote body-snatchers a couple of people 2908 01:53:20,480 --> 01:53:18,240 well-known people the ufology said words 2909 01:53:21,830 --> 01:53:20,490 to the effect of wow you know you wrote 2910 01:53:23,750 --> 01:53:21,840 that book are you worried about getting 2911 01:53:26,480 --> 01:53:23,760 thrown off the lecture circuit in other 2912 01:53:28,670 --> 01:53:26,490 words they were worried had they done 2913 01:53:30,500 --> 01:53:28,680 something similar they wouldn't be 2914 01:53:32,450 --> 01:53:30,510 invited to the next conference at this 2915 01:53:34,580 --> 01:53:32,460 city or that city 2916 01:53:36,410 --> 01:53:34,590 that's what you're facing you have the 2917 01:53:39,290 --> 01:53:36,420 youth illogical community that doesn't 2918 01:53:41,870 --> 01:53:39,300 want to rock the boat because they have 2919 01:53:43,459 --> 01:53:41,880 like their own turf within that field 2920 01:53:45,950 --> 01:53:43,469 he's the abduction guy he's the implants 2921 01:53:48,350 --> 01:53:45,960 guy she's whatever you know and that's 2922 01:53:50,209 --> 01:53:48,360 the problem and they're trying to think 2923 01:53:51,979 --> 01:53:50,219 outside of the box because they they're 2924 01:53:53,720 --> 01:53:51,989 fearful of what their peers and 2925 01:53:55,220 --> 01:53:53,730 colleagues are gonna say the Freud never 2926 01:53:57,500 --> 01:53:55,230 getting thrown off the lecture circuit 2927 01:53:59,390 --> 01:53:57,510 or not getting you know late-night phone 2928 01:54:01,490 --> 01:53:59,400 calls from this research or that one or 2929 01:54:03,380 --> 01:54:01,500 being in on somebody's little secret you 2930 01:54:05,630 --> 01:54:03,390 know their big grand plans for you 2931 01:54:07,760 --> 01:54:05,640 follow G or whatever and that's what 2932 01:54:10,430 --> 01:54:07,770 that's what we're up against we're up 2933 01:54:13,250 --> 01:54:10,440 against not just trying to expose a 2934 01:54:16,580 --> 01:54:13,260 phenomenon we're up against a subjects 2935 01:54:19,400 --> 01:54:16,590 and people within the subject who have a 2936 01:54:21,200 --> 01:54:19,410 comfort zone which you know it's 2937 01:54:23,709 --> 01:54:21,210 relative to other people as well but 2938 01:54:26,000 --> 01:54:23,719 they don't really want to get out of and 2939 01:54:28,220 --> 01:54:26,010 that's the problem how we get them out 2940 01:54:29,930 --> 01:54:28,230 of it to look at other ideas without 2941 01:54:31,310 --> 01:54:29,940 them worrying about the first thing that 2942 01:54:33,440 --> 01:54:31,320 they're not going to get but they've got 2943 01:54:35,360 --> 01:54:33,450 to speak at John Smith's conference next 2944 01:54:38,810 --> 01:54:35,370 year or whatever John Smith's putting on 2945 01:54:42,140 --> 01:54:38,820 a conference right where do you need an 2946 01:54:43,970 --> 01:54:42,150 extra speaker I could use it well yeah 2947 01:54:46,220 --> 01:54:43,980 whether it's John Smith you know bill 2948 01:54:48,770 --> 01:54:46,230 whatever who knows you know just the 2949 01:54:51,560 --> 01:54:48,780 idea don't worry about your position in 2950 01:54:54,170 --> 01:54:51,570 ufology just just go where your mind 2951 01:54:57,410 --> 01:54:54,180 goes man bill didn't invite me either 2952 01:54:59,720 --> 01:54:57,420 that's terrible well when I did my 2953 01:55:01,760 --> 01:54:59,730 review of the book which you can read on 2954 01:55:04,610 --> 01:55:01,770 the podcast for insight I said look Mac 2955 01:55:06,680 --> 01:55:04,620 wasn't writing for ufology I know 2956 01:55:08,540 --> 01:55:06,690 believe me folks can believe me or not 2957 01:55:10,100 --> 01:55:08,550 but anyone a new Mac knew that he had 2958 01:55:12,080 --> 01:55:10,110 very little used for a quote quote 2959 01:55:14,990 --> 01:55:12,090 apology and it comes through in his book 2960 01:55:16,550 --> 01:55:15,000 Mac was aiming at a bigger target and 2961 01:55:18,979 --> 01:55:16,560 this is why I think he had no idea he 2962 01:55:21,260 --> 01:55:18,989 was gonna die or anything I think this 2963 01:55:23,600 --> 01:55:21,270 was just the beginning for him of what 2964 01:55:25,970 --> 01:55:23,610 was going to be a very long exploration 2965 01:55:27,770 --> 01:55:25,980 of what the UFO phenomenon man and not 2966 01:55:29,810 --> 01:55:27,780 an exploration that would not a 2967 01:55:32,870 --> 01:55:29,820 conversation that he was interested 2968 01:55:34,910 --> 01:55:32,880 really in having with ufology which I 2969 01:55:37,070 --> 01:55:34,920 think he believed was terminally ill I 2970 01:55:39,650 --> 01:55:37,080 think it was a conversation he wanted to 2971 01:55:43,430 --> 01:55:39,660 have with people outside ufology that he 2972 01:55:45,110 --> 01:55:43,440 wanted to to engage to talk to people to 2973 01:55:47,180 --> 01:55:45,120 learn from people that 2974 01:55:50,870 --> 01:55:47,190 weren't stuck in this you know la brea 2975 01:55:51,440 --> 01:55:50,880 tar pit of intellectual rigidity I like 2976 01:55:53,810 --> 01:55:51,450 that phrase 2977 01:55:56,150 --> 01:55:53,820 can I just copyright that we can use 2978 01:55:57,860 --> 01:55:56,160 that and you know when I when I wrote 2979 01:56:00,410 --> 01:55:57,870 the review this is horrible I'm about to 2980 01:56:02,180 --> 01:56:00,420 quote for myself now but to me this is 2981 01:56:04,370 --> 01:56:02,190 what the crypto terrestrials is and 2982 01:56:06,950 --> 01:56:04,380 uncle Stan will not like this but 2983 01:56:08,630 --> 01:56:06,960 whatever I wrote people like Stan have 2984 01:56:10,550 --> 01:56:08,640 done more to undermine the cause of the 2985 01:56:12,470 --> 01:56:10,560 extra-terrestrial hypothesis within the 2986 01:56:14,690 --> 01:56:12,480 broader public than a hundred sets show 2987 01:56:16,790 --> 01:56:14,700 sex not necessarily because they're 2988 01:56:19,220 --> 01:56:16,800 wrong but because they are so convinced 2989 01:56:20,810 --> 01:56:19,230 that everyone else is wrong Mac rejected 2990 01:56:22,910 --> 01:56:20,820 as Gregg Nick and I do their 2991 01:56:24,800 --> 01:56:22,920 intellectual rigidity as well as their 2992 01:56:26,660 --> 01:56:24,810 lack of any true sense of wonder or 2993 01:56:28,550 --> 01:56:26,670 appreciation for the mystery of it all 2994 01:56:30,830 --> 01:56:28,560 and now I use one final biblical thing 2995 01:56:33,110 --> 01:56:30,840 and Mickey is rock and roll but I wrote 2996 01:56:34,520 --> 01:56:33,120 a freedman it all have spent last few 2997 01:56:35,930 --> 01:56:34,530 decades hunkered down in the u falah 2998 01:56:38,510 --> 01:56:35,940 djegal equivalent of an intellectual 2999 01:56:39,860 --> 01:56:38,520 jericho the Mac is the guy standing at 3000 01:56:42,230 --> 01:56:39,870 the walls with the trumpet and the 3001 01:56:44,240 --> 01:56:42,240 crypto terrestrials is the blast that 3002 01:56:47,180 --> 01:56:44,250 should bring the whole decrepit edifice 3003 01:56:48,770 --> 01:56:47,190 of certainty crumbling down and I think 3004 01:56:50,810 --> 01:56:48,780 that's what this book is I think it's a 3005 01:56:52,970 --> 01:56:50,820 clarion and compared it to the Ramones 3006 01:56:55,100 --> 01:56:52,980 and the Sex Pistols and somewhere Mac's 3007 01:56:57,380 --> 01:56:55,110 spinning in his proverbial wherever he 3008 01:56:58,940 --> 01:56:57,390 is because although you did mention 3009 01:57:01,970 --> 01:56:58,950 Morrissey in the Smiths in your forward 3010 01:57:03,680 --> 01:57:01,980 Nick which was nice but so many people 3011 01:57:06,290 --> 01:57:03,690 have been so certain for so long about 3012 01:57:09,170 --> 01:57:06,300 what the UFO phenomenon represents that 3013 01:57:10,970 --> 01:57:09,180 too to paraphrase the Joker from Tim 3014 01:57:12,590 --> 01:57:10,980 Burton's Batman what this thing needs is 3015 01:57:15,440 --> 01:57:12,600 an enema and what the crypto 3016 01:57:17,990 --> 01:57:15,450 terrestrials is is the enema it is that 3017 01:57:20,390 --> 01:57:18,000 trumpet blast that says you know we 3018 01:57:21,590 --> 01:57:20,400 can't be certain about anything which 3019 01:57:23,540 --> 01:57:21,600 doesn't mean we're chickens with our 3020 01:57:25,250 --> 01:57:23,550 heads cut off running around just 3021 01:57:28,280 --> 01:57:25,260 willy-nilly saying this then the other 3022 01:57:30,530 --> 01:57:28,290 thing let's focus in let's ask questions 3023 01:57:33,050 --> 01:57:30,540 again maybe those questions will 3024 01:57:35,120 --> 01:57:33,060 eventually lead us to answers but we 3025 01:57:37,220 --> 01:57:35,130 have to admit that after 60 years we 3026 01:57:39,380 --> 01:57:37,230 don't have those answers yet and we're 3027 01:57:41,750 --> 01:57:39,390 really no closer than we were in 1948 3028 01:57:43,190 --> 01:57:41,760 and I think that's the point of what he 3029 01:57:45,590 --> 01:57:43,200 was doing with the crypto terrestrials 3030 01:57:47,240 --> 01:57:45,600 encouraging people to think again and to 3031 01:57:49,220 --> 01:57:47,250 look for answers again and I think this 3032 01:57:50,780 --> 01:57:49,230 encourages us to do more episodes about 3033 01:57:53,060 --> 01:57:50,790 the crypto terrestrials and what it 3034 01:57:54,740 --> 01:57:53,070 means to the study of UFOs and other 3035 01:57:56,990 --> 01:57:54,750 mysteries Greg mission where do we find 3036 01:57:59,790 --> 01:57:57,000 more of the things that you do well 3037 01:58:04,200 --> 01:57:59,800 mainly in one place UFO mystic where I 3038 01:58:07,710 --> 01:58:04,210 write semi a semi regularly also you can 3039 01:58:12,210 --> 01:58:07,720 listen to my podcast radio Mysterio so 3040 01:58:15,750 --> 01:58:12,220 calm it's mis ter Oso spelled I guess 3041 01:58:18,510 --> 01:58:15,760 this Hispanic way and then of course 3042 01:58:21,060 --> 01:58:18,520 there's books project beta weird 3043 01:58:24,680 --> 01:58:21,070 California and wake up down there which 3044 01:58:28,650 --> 01:58:24,690 is a compendium of the magazine that I 3045 01:58:30,930 --> 01:58:28,660 published from about 1991 to about 2000 3046 01:58:32,580 --> 01:58:30,940 Nick Redfern where do we find more of 3047 01:58:36,720 --> 01:58:32,590 the things that you do well 3048 01:58:39,090 --> 01:58:36,730 coincidentally I also write for people 3049 01:58:40,800 --> 01:58:39,100 to find more it's my website Nick 3050 01:58:43,140 --> 01:58:40,810 Redfern calm I got a lot of different 3051 01:58:46,410 --> 01:58:43,150 blogs on various subjects that I'm 3052 01:58:48,690 --> 01:58:46,420 interested in and click on the website 3053 01:58:51,540 --> 01:58:48,700 and you can find all the info there and 3054 01:58:55,500 --> 01:58:51,550 Paul where we find your stuff the Brass 3055 01:58:56,670 --> 01:58:55,510 Rail in downtown Toronto which anybody's 3056 01:58:59,070 --> 01:58:56,680 ever been to Toronto they know exactly 3057 01:59:00,360 --> 01:58:59,080 what I'm talking about but every town 3058 01:59:03,780 --> 01:59:00,370 has a club like that 3059 01:59:06,390 --> 01:59:03,790 no red star film stop blog spot.com for 3060 01:59:07,410 --> 01:59:06,400 some of my paranormal stuff go to my I 3061 01:59:10,350 --> 01:59:07,420 have a YouTube 3062 01:59:12,330 --> 01:59:10,360 sort of page red star films if you sort 3063 01:59:15,630 --> 01:59:12,340 of type into a youtube search engine Mac 3064 01:59:18,060 --> 01:59:15,640 Tonys and UFO some of the videos that I 3065 01:59:19,710 --> 01:59:18,070 did if Mac will come up the most 3066 01:59:22,470 --> 01:59:19,720 important of which I would I would 3067 01:59:25,290 --> 01:59:22,480 suggest is I gave him the final word in 3068 01:59:27,270 --> 01:59:25,300 my best evidence documentary and I think 3069 01:59:28,680 --> 01:59:27,280 everybody should listen to that it's 3070 01:59:30,990 --> 01:59:28,690 really only him talking for about a 3071 01:59:32,640 --> 01:59:31,000 minute but it sums up pretty much 3072 01:59:34,770 --> 01:59:32,650 everything that Mac believed and thought 3073 01:59:37,110 --> 01:59:34,780 about the UFO phenomenon which is why I 3074 01:59:39,000 --> 01:59:37,120 put him at the end of the film so so 3075 01:59:41,070 --> 01:59:39,010 look for that Paul Campbell Nicholas 3076 01:59:44,589 --> 01:59:41,080 Redfern Greg Bishop thanks for joining 3077 01:59:51,399 --> 01:59:49,000 our gold standard of power over you is 3078 01:59:54,280 --> 01:59:51,409 copywriting presentation away from the 3079 01:59:57,460 --> 01:59:54,290 impossible every two minutes hopefully